Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
Airbeat wrote:
What? A smart guy like you shouldn't waste you're time on a game =p You could make a cure for aids, or.. save the whales!
You forgot the 'C-word', cancer. Neoplasm is uncontrolled growth. This is the argument that is often quoted when militant no-bot ppl are confronted with the social harm the 'shun method' can (not always, I'm just addressing ultra-extreme cases) cause. They quote their numbers and their goals. They quote another 'C-word" Collateral Damage meaning the Arnold movie and do not consider this: Collateral Damage.
To me they've injected (or attempted to inject) their code into the 'purist' process. It is no longer required to be personally responsible for your own actions, you are now required to shun friends or strangers who have what they term the 'taint' of botting on them.
Let's take that one step further, shall we? What if I sold a drop that I found and it wasn't to them? MAYBE it was paid for by money bought from gold-botters? The true ultra-extreme 'philosophy' would require me to forsake selling in a stall, right? Shudder!
Cancer.
Grandpa wrote:
<snip>
Let's take that one step further, shall we? What if I sold a drop that I found and it wasn't to them? MAYBE it was paid for by money bought from gold-botters? Shudder!
Cancer.
In SRO that isn't unlikely but you wouldn't be shunned for something as minute as that. In sro it is SOMETIMES hard to discern a conscientious (economics wise) Legit from a goldbuyer, so as a rule of thumb buying goods from a gold buyer isn't something one should really pay attention to let alone stress over. Its the botting and gold-buying (e.g.) cheating vis-a-vis illegal (in TOS terms) methods that needs to be ELIMINATED! In order to perform such a large undertaking in this environment (burgeoning legion of cheaters) without support from the primary proprietor of the game (Joymax, Inc.) one must go to extremes. At most that means using reasoning and calling out botters/goldbuyers our for what they are: CHEATERS! In game they MUST be shunned, and the results are expected and wanted. The Human animal is a social animal and therefore by nature will fight to be accepted by its peers, place a human in a situation in which it cannot survive in its current state and it will adapt. Its a minor form of terrorism and I realize this, but an eye for an eye. To what an extent this justice will be taken; I am unaware of, but I do know this: The results are astonishing, for I have been over the mountain, I have stood on the terrace, the highest pedestal only to be brought down. NEVER AGAIN! The CHEATING ENDS HERE AND NOW!
In short, the goal is to reform cheaters. Their adaptation, their transformation, their change, their evolution; that is what we, as The Legit Minority, should strive for. In SRO, this is an era of change. The cheaters have become to comfortable, and to many Legits have become used to the situation. "never more." The psychology behind f2p games is quite intriguing.
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Viva la legittimità
Last edited by Judge on Mon May 05, 2008 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What? A smart guy like you shouldn't waste you're time on a game =p You could make a cure for aids, or.. save the whales!
You forgot the 'C-word', cancer. Neoplasm is uncontrolled growth. This is the argument that is often quoted when militant no-bot ppl are confronted with the social harm the 'shun method' can (not always, I'm just addressing ultra-extreme cases) cause. They quote their numbers and their goals. They quote another 'C-word" Collateral Damage meaning the Arnold movie and do not consider this: Collateral Damage.
To me they've injected (or attempted to inject) their code into the 'purist' process. It is no longer required to be personally responsible for your own actions, you are now required to shun friends or strangers who have what they term the 'taint' of botting on them.
Let's take that one step further, shall we? What if I sold a drop that I found and it wasn't to them? MAYBE it was paid for by money bought from gold-botters? The true ultra-extreme 'philosophy' would require me to forsake selling in a stall, right? Shudder!
Cancer.
Grandpa wrote:
<snip>
Let's take that one step further, shall we? What if I sold a drop that I found and it wasn't to them? MAYBE it was paid for by money bought from gold-botters? Shudder!
Cancer.
In SRO that isn't unlikely but you wouldn't be shunned for something as minute as that. In sro it is SOMETIMES hard to discern a conscientious (economics wise) Legit from a goldbuyer, so as a rule of thumb buying goods from a gold buyer isn't something one should really pay attention to let alone stress over. Its the botting and gold-buying (e.g.) cheating vis-a-vis illegal (in TOS terms) methods that needs to be ELIMINATED! In order to perform such a large undertaking in this environment (burgeoning legion of cheaters) without support from the primary proprietor of the game (Joymax, Inc.) one must go to extremes. At most that means using reasoning and calling out botters/goldbuyers our for what they are: CHEATERS! In game they MUST be shunned, and the results are expected and wanted. The Human animal is a social animal and therefore by nature will fight to be accepted by its peers, place a human in a situation in which it cannot survive in its current state and it will adapt. Its a minor form of terrorism and I realize this, but an eye for an eye. To what an extent this justice will be taken; I am unaware of, but I do know this: The results are astonishing, for I have been over the mountain, I have stood on the terrace, the highest pedestal only to be brought down. NEVER AGAIN! The CHEATING ENDS HERE AND NOW!
I could read this again, but after a single read, I agree with every single word. So now, does this mean that if I am legit I have scrutinize all my player interactions with others? What if somebody was in a guild that had known botters in their midst but didn't bot themselves?
What if my friend in that guild was in transition and thinking, "Maybe I should join Grandpa, or "Judge" and feel better about myself"... then... while he is in the process I party with him. NOW ENTER the militant no-botter who takes one look at the old guild tag and summarily drops us from the party. I'm left saying to my friend, "Nevermind him... he's just a kid, okay. Really, it's better over here."
I guess my basic problem is when those in authority (guild leaders) choose to peer down in a minute fashion into my business. Trust me, if he/she is a known botter I WILL have nothing to do with them. But instead of deferring to my good judgment and style (as a purist / legit) I am shunned. Woopsie. There goes the high ground.
It goes to principles. The Israelites (pardon the religious reference, I'm familiar with it is all) were in captivity in Egypt. They were told later to allow and be kind to 'strangers' in their gates. They were told to remember that they too were in captivity. So, now I am to be unkind to those who are captured by greed and don't yet see the error of their ways? To some extent, yes. I don't want even the appearance of 'botting' to be attached to ME. But that's my business.
If given the choice of joining a group of fame and power hungry ultra-extreme advocates of genocide or playing solo? Shun me. But as for me? I will continue to give respect freely (trust is EARNED though). Me and mine will attempt to remain sane in this insane situation and for me? That's not always easy.
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
I could read this again, but after a single read, I agree with every single word. So now, does this mean that if I am legit I have scrutinize all my player interactions with others? What if somebody was in a guild that had known botters in their midst but didn't bot themselves?
What if my friend in that guild was in transition and thinking, "Maybe I should join Grandpa, or "Judge" and feel better about myself"... then... while he is in the process I party with him. NOW ENTER the militant no-botter who takes one look at the old guild tag and summarily drops us from the party. I'm left saying to my friend, "Nevermind him... he's just a kid, okay. Really, it's better over here."
I guess my basic problem is when those in authority (guild leaders) choose to peer down in a minute fashion into my business. Trust me, if he/she is a known botter I WILL have nothing to do with them. But instead of deferring to my good judgment and style (as a purist / legit) I am shunned. Woopsie. There goes the high ground.
Interesting, a similar situation to "borats" question. The ostracizing of legits that associate with those who are aligned with botters through the tag above their name. Simply, if a guild or union is known to have botters in its midst and there is no problem with this (within the guild/union) then the guild/union is labeled as a botting guild by the Legit guilds. When a Legit joins such a guild/union, knowing what they are associated with, then that player (legit or not) is labeled as a supporter of cheaters. When applying extremes there is no middle ground in war, like all arts, you're either against us (it, referring to the movement) or with us.
I refer to the America's and other similar western nations stance of appeasement. I hope that is enough to continue this without having to elaborate.
EDIT:, hmm: Think of the Legits in and botters in terms of ALLIES vs AXIS, the ALLIES being the Legitimate players and the AXIS being the illegitimate players (cheaters). Specifically let us focus on the case of appeasement and genocide, by being neutral or not caring for the Legit cause you are indirectly supporting botters. Its like saying "I don't care what you do, it is no business of mine." The thing is: By joining the fray at such a critical moment and choosing the side of neutrality rather than the side of JUSTICE you are associated with what is considered "wrong". Therefore by doing nothing or by "turning the other cheek" you're allowing such actions and by allowing such actions you say cheating is o-k as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY harm me. That is indirect support which ,when construed in such a way, translates to direct support. By sitting by doing nothing you aid in the destruction which can be prevented.
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Viva la legittimità
Last edited by Judge on Mon May 05, 2008 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nevermind him... he's just a kid, okay. Really, it's better over here."
I guess my basic problem is when those in authority (guild leaders) choose to peer down in a minute fashion into my business. Trust me, if he/she is a known botter I WILL have nothing to do with them. But instead of deferring to my good judgment and style (as a purist / legit) I am shunned. Woopsie. There goes the high ground.
Interesting, a similar situation to "borats" question.
I refer to the America's and other similar western nations stance of appeasement. I hope that is enough to continue this without having to elaborate.
Yes, I respect Borat2. I respect his view. But note that in my example, it is not my friend nor my guild tag that got me shunned. People who are over-zealous (something that I can also respect) can make mistakes. I don't play on Venus (yet) so I really doubt that it will come to that.
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
Judge wrote:
Grandpa wrote:
"Nevermind him... he's just a kid, okay. Really, it's better over here."
I guess my basic problem is when those in authority (guild leaders) choose to peer down in a minute fashion into my business. Trust me, if he/she is a known botter I WILL have nothing to do with them. But instead of deferring to my good judgment and style (as a purist / legit) I am shunned. Woopsie. There goes the high ground.
Interesting, a similar situation to "borats" question.
I refer to the America's and other similar western nations stance of appeasement. I hope that is enough to continue this without having to elaborate.
Yes, I respect Borat2. I respect his view. But note that in my example, it is not my friend nor my guild tag that got me shunned. People who are over-zealous (something that I can also respect) can make mistakes. I don't play on Venus (yet) so I really doubt that it will come to that.
Thanks for your reply though.
Read my "EDIT"
EDIT:
Quote:
What if my friend in that guild was in transition and thinking
1]Thinking is good, but if he wants to think he shouldn't have sided himself with the AXIS of EVIL in the first place and rather stayed without a tag so his/her neutrality wouldn't be taken as hostile and a blatant disrespect of the movement.
Quote:
, "Maybe I should join Grandpa, or "Judge" and feel better about myself"
2]While in a period of transition from neutral to staunch legitimacy or bot support it is better to remain guildless rather than take such a tag knowing what it stands for
Quote:
NOW ENTER the militant no-botter who takes one look at the old guild tag and summarily drops us from the party.
3]He dropped you and him from the party for reasons one and two
Quote:
I'm left saying to my friend, "Nevermind him... he's just a kid, okay. Really, it's better over here."
4]If your friend didn't understand the situation it is different, but if your friend previously played MMOs or has heard "stories" of SRO he should know what would come of accepting that invite without scrutinizing the guild that invited him with questions such as: Do you bot? Do you buy gold? If not do you accpet those who bot and/or buy gold and why? Then he should have departed before becoming attached and looked elsewhere for a better guild.
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Viva la legittimità
Last edited by Judge on Mon May 05, 2008 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If 'dr's post means a faux pas, I may have. Three 'conversations' going on here. I'm now scrolling up to read another edit.
It's a dynamic communicative form. I like it. As long as my 'doctoring' doesn't include malicious intent, I'll admit to it. I like your comment, made me smile.
Judge wrote:
EDIT:, hmm: Think of the Legits in and botters in terms of ALLIES vs AXIS, the ALLIES being the Legitimate players and the AXIS being the illegitimate players (cheaters). Specifically let us focus on the case of appeasement and genocide, by being neutral or not caring for the Legit cause you are indirectly supporting botters. Its like saying "I don't care what you do, it is no business of mine." The thing is: By joining the fray at such a critical moment and choosing the side of neutrality rather than the side of JUSTICE you are associated with what is considered "wrong". Therefore by doing nothing or by "turning the other cheek" you're allowing such actions and by allowing such actions you say cheating is o-k as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY harm me. That is indirect support which ,when construed in such a way, translates to direct support. By sitting by doing nothing you aid in the destruction which can be prevented.
Okay, I've cut-n-pasted your 'edit' for the sake of the conversation.
Respectfully, I am not being 'neutral'. I am personally responsible for my actions and not the actions of others. If I am to be judged by the associations that I make? Okay, yes. It is right to do this. I will not knowingly join a bot-supporter, nor his group. That better?
Lol - That's a new one. I've never been called 'neutral' before.
I've been confronted with my beliefs in the past. It reminds me of when I was in a Jewish chat site and the Prime Minister was killed. There was a lot of animosity and 'they' understood me to be a 'christian'. The cause of Justice was very, very real then. People don't understand balance. I don't claim to either. But Mercy and Justice are both integral to my position.
Joined: Nov 2006 Posts: 6816 Location: Anything goes
Grandpa wrote:
IceCrash wrote:
Did grandpa ignore dr's post? wha?
If 'dr's post means a faux pas, I may have. Three 'conversations' going on here. I'm now scrolling up to read another edit.
It's a dynamic communicative form. I like it. As long as my 'doctoring' doesn't include malicious intent, I'll admit to it. I like your comment, made me smile.
Judge wrote:
EDIT:, hmm: Think of the Legits in and botters in terms of ALLIES vs AXIS, the ALLIES being the Legitimate players and the AXIS being the illegitimate players (cheaters). Specifically let us focus on the case of appeasement and genocide, by being neutral or not caring for the Legit cause you are indirectly supporting botters. Its like saying "I don't care what you do, it is no business of mine." The thing is: By joining the fray at such a critical moment and choosing the side of neutrality rather than the side of JUSTICE you are associated with what is considered "wrong". Therefore by doing nothing or by "turning the other cheek" you're allowing such actions and by allowing such actions you say cheating is o-k as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY harm me. That is indirect support which ,when construed in such a way, translates to direct support. By sitting by doing nothing you aid in the destruction which can be prevented.
Okay, I've cut-n-pasted your 'edit' for the sake of the conversation.
Respectfully, I am not being 'neutral'. I am personally responsible for my actions and not the actions of others. If I am to be judged by the associations that I make? Okay, yes. It is right to do this. I will not knowingly join a bot-supporter, nor his group. That better?
Lol - That's a new one. I've never been called 'neutral' before.
yours made me smile too ^_^ but, did you read DaRealest's post? You didn't answer my question
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
IceCrash wrote:
Did grandpa ignore dr's post? wha?
If 'dr's post means a faux pas, I may have. Three 'conversations' going on here. I'm now scrolling up to read another edit.
It's a dynamic communicative form. I like it. As long as my 'doctoring' doesn't include malicious intent, I'll admit to it. I like your comment, made me smile.
Judge wrote:
EDIT:, hmm: Think of the Legits in and botters in terms of ALLIES vs AXIS, the ALLIES being the Legitimate players and the AXIS being the illegitimate players (cheaters). Specifically let us focus on the case of appeasement and genocide, by being neutral or not caring for the Legit cause you are indirectly supporting botters. Its like saying "I don't care what you do, it is no business of mine." The thing is: By joining the fray at such a critical moment and choosing the side of neutrality rather than the side of JUSTICE you are associated with what is considered "wrong". Therefore by doing nothing or by "turning the other cheek" you're allowing such actions and by allowing such actions you say cheating is o-k as long as it doesn't DIRECTLY harm me. That is indirect support which ,when construed in such a way, translates to direct support. By sitting by doing nothing you aid in the destruction which can be prevented.
Okay, I've cut-n-pasted your 'edit' for the sake of the conversation.
Respectfully, I am not being 'neutral'. I am personally responsible for my actions and not the actions of others. If I am to be judged by the associations that I make? Okay, yes. It is right to do this. I will not knowingly join a bot-supporter, nor his group. That better?
Lol - That's a new one. I've never been called 'neutral' before.
Neutral? I didn't call you neutral I called your friend neutral. You're a Legit trying to help your friend down the right road. There are two roads and you're making sure he takes the right one. Point is, if you and your friend want to avoid the shunning it is best for him to avoid joining guilds until he has chosen his stance and hopefully with your help he will make the right choice. We have both come to the conclusion that the goal is to reform, we have also found two distinct ways of doing so: 1]Extremism, and 2]Peaceful Measures. It has been proven time and time again ~ Victory through peace results in the least casualties but extremism leads to the quickest results. Question is: Is it possible to integrate the two?
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Viva la legittimità
Last edited by Judge on Mon May 05, 2008 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nice post, but you went off on a few tangents throughout the post, which dulled the meaning of the whole post. I still don't get what your trying to say....
WOAH! I just looked and in the time that it took me to post one message, 3 more were added under. Then I looked up and the ones I had replied to had changed.
lol, fun stuff - but I'll go back a page and check DaRealists post now. Trying to follow the threads within the thread reminds me of the circles within the circles of Ezekiel's vision. Dizzy me.
ThisIsAvalon wrote:
Nice post, but you went off on a few tangents throughout the post, which dulled the meaning of the whole post. I still don't get what your trying to say....
Well said. What I'm 'trying' to say is that there are consequences to our choices. If we take too zealous of a stance we too can lose our humanity. Our compassion.
I like this game and from what I read, would be proud to die beside any one of you. I like this forum also and enjoy the free exchange of ideas. I don't like (but admit it is a necessary evil) anything that limits me. I've seen people express this frustration by making admissions in order to be kicked from the forum and have empathy (not support).
Being a purist is okay. When considering 'extreme methods' it is also okay to apply standards. I require higher standards of my leaders. It's my choice. I won't join 'legit' guilds if they don't care about people. I won't join botter guilds at all.
Trying to be clear, hope that helped. Now I still need to go back to "DaRealists" post and see what I missed...
[EDIT] Ohhhh... the 'green' post....
DaRealist wrote:
I don't agree with the way you presented your argument if you even intended for it to be such. The lack of organization, wordiness, switching between formal, informal, standard, and archaic diction, how you go into so much detail with your examples only to follow with unclear explanations, etc. irks me. Probably because I'm viewing your post as an argumentative essay. However, I do agree with the point you were attempting to make, or the point that I think you were trying to make. Also I like the set up you did, well I assume that may have been an intention of your post. Name the title "Witch Hunters" attracting the alleged witch hunters, surprise them with a long winded post which they will undoubtedly skim through looking for a confession. They see "official admission" in bold and think they have something. Surprise.
On the other hand, if you are trying to make a point, to whom? This certainly isn't for the majority of SRF community. I'm pretty sure you're aware that because Silkroad is an international game, there are many people browsing these forums that don't speak English as their first language. Even for someone who does speak English fluently, the lengthiness of your post and choice of words can be intimidating or seem not worth the time to many. In my opinion, whether it was a intended to be an essay or rant of some sort, the whole effort was wasted because you've alienated the potential perspectives of much of the community. Or maybe its a "for whoever cares" type a post. I guess I can agree with that...
It's ok if he doesn't agree with my method. It's okay to me of I 'irk him'. He already knows that nobody can please all people all the time and doesn't need me to say such things. Actually, he's very insightful & for me to point out that he is simply wrong is an unjustice. Here, have one quote from my PM's in reply:
Quote:
Would like to thank you for that amazing post about Witch hunters, my English need a lot of work so i had to read it couple times before i actually could follow it hope i understand it all correctly (or i just have to read it again)
Everything i wanted to vent or try to tell people with my "Definition of being legit" topic has been explained perfectly.
English is my 3rd language, Dutch and French are kinda my specialties at college.
His conclusion was correct, "Or maybe its a "for whoever cares" type a post. I guess I can agree with that..." it was also designed to weed out those who tended toward the illiterate and engage the other side of that spectrum. I don't mean to say that their feelings are every bit as valid, but only that they are not often as well articulated.
Mark my words, somebody will be able to say what I tried to say in 3,000 words or less in a sentence or two and put me to shame. That's a good thing.
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
Well said. What I'm 'trying' to say is that there are consequences to our choices. If we take too zealous of a stance we too can lose our humanity. Our compassion.
I won't join 'legit' guilds if they don't care about people. I won't join botter guilds at all.
OffT: I am enjoying a delicious turkey leg OnT: Specifically the consequences you speak of are the Legits who turn rotten in order to spite those who shunned them earlier. As I said: There are casualties in every battle, and there are two methods of battle. Employment of Peace as a Weapon and Acts of Aggression such as Terror. Once again the question is: If possible, can the two be integrated? My response: Yes, but there needs to be a clear defined line. A point at which acts of aggression are called for and methods of peace are required. Sometimes "Victory through Peace" can be obtained but not in the case of SRO.
Now to the second point: What if the Legit guilds cared about people, but the battle has reached such a high point that no more mercy can be shown towards those who associate themselves with the enemy? What if the war has reached such a crux that only those who show exceptional extremism are treated with "equality" while those who are "lackluster" or not as extreme are shunned as supporters of botters? This comes back to the point: "If you're not with us, you're against us." or ALLIES vs AXIS. Difficult questions, difficult questions indeed. We may appear Extreme on the surface but we are merely defending what we, as Legits, stand for: The Reformation and Extinction of cheating in all shapes and forms through methods of Extremism.
Summary of Grandpa's post: "although I agree with some methods employed by Legit Zealots they can easily become lost in their goal of purging cheating. When one's goal controls them, there are consequences. Both for the Legit and the target. The target being their goal. Essentially being to extreme harms the acquisition of one's goals."
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Well said. What I'm 'trying' to say is that there are consequences to our choices. If we take too zealous of a stance we too can lose our humanity. Our compassion.
I won't join 'legit' guilds if they don't care about people. I won't join botter guilds at all.
OffT: I am enjoying a delicious turkey leg OnT: Specifically the consequences you speak of are the Legits who turn rotten in order to spite those who shunned them earlier. As I said: There are casualties in every battle, and there are two methods of battle. Employment of Peace as a Weapon and Acts of Aggression such as Terror. Once again the question is: If possible, can the two be integrated? My response: Yes, but there needs to be a clear defined line. A point at which acts of aggression are called for and methods of peace are required. Sometimes "Victory through Peace" can be obtained but not in the case of SRO.
Now to the second point: What if the Legit guilds cared about people, but the battle has reached such a high point that no more mercy can be shown towards those who associate themselves with the enemy? What if the war has reached such a crux that only those who show exceptional extremism are treated with "equality" while those who are "lackluster" or not as extreme are shunned as supporters of botters? This comes back to the point: "If you're not with us, you're against us." or ALLIES vs AXIS. Difficult questions, difficult questions indeed. We may appear Extreme on the surface but we are merely defending what we, as Legits, stand for: The Reformation and Extinction of cheating in all shapes and forms through methods of Extremism.
The balance of your position is, "If you are not against us, you are with us." That is the danger, the hook, the 'sworl' that happens in transition.
You also asked another question in one of the edits:
"Victory through peace results in the least casualties but extremism leads to the quickest results. Question is: Is it possible to integrate the two?"
My thoughtful answer is yes, it is possible. But not without suffering personal harm. Want another long story? Click spoiler
Spoiler!
His name is/was 'Quack'. Yep, and I'm not making this up. The name isn't changed. There are no innocent. He was a 30 year old who used a bicycle as a means of transportation and he was a crack dealer. I 'ran' into Quack and his cronies one day when I heard a neighbor girl call out in distress. I didn't arm myself but went directly to the commotion. The 15 year old girl he and his friend were attacking verbally didn't know me from Adam.
While I watched and made my presence known by my cautious stance I saw him hit her. SO then I acted. "I DID NOT JUST SEE YOU HIT HER" Like the jackals they were, they started to circle me. During the time that I occupied their attention, she made her way around the corner and found her way past my gate and into my yard. I had gone out through my back gate.
Ok, it was a dangerous situation. I'm not your normal 'grandpa' and can defend myself should I choose to. It was one of those 'moments' and my thought was that it was a 'defining' moment for me. Would I go against my stance of not causing harm to others? I have the right to defend myself with sufficient force to stave off any further attack. It is an unalienable right. Lucky for me, it didn't come to that. To me it was a lose-lose situation in that I would either have to take another beating or compromise my morals. It worked out okay though.
Quack realized that he had been distracted and during the time it took him to understand my intent wasn't to do him harm the girl had escaped his notice and later took shelter in my home. I made her a peanut-butter sandwich and it (the story) had a happy ending.
In a different situation, I have suffered injuries for my position. Broken ribs, blood spilled in real. I've met and befriended people from "The Victims Council" in my state of residence. I still correspond with them. I've been quoted in front of the State Senate. I've joined myself with Prosecuting Attorneys in their efforts to assist kids. I've received a letter of commendation from the Governor's office and been asked if I would appear on TV. Okay, okay, I can almost hear you saying... Yeah, GP, you're a great guy... meh.
The point is that from extreme positions (peaceful or otherwise) people who come together under a single cause can achieve unity. This is what affects change. Not the shedding of blood. It is my personal choice to allow my own blood to be spilled and not become the direct cause of harm. I hope to be able to uphold that standard without further direct challenge. I'm not a true pacifist. You hurt my friend? I will engage. Preventing harm to others is a part of it.
It's more and more like how my kids say, "Shut up ol' man, or I'll break yer hip." They love me, but have watched too much Adam Sandler methinks.
Remember when I said, "Mark my words"?? I knew that somebody would state what I tried to say (in my 3,000 words or less manner) in a sentence or two and thereby put me to shame. Here it is:
Quote:
Summary of Grandpa's post: "although I agree with some methods employed by Legit Zealots they can easily become lost in their goal of purging cheating. When one's goal controls them, there are consequences. Both for the Legit and the target...
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
Spoiler + rebuttal
Nice spoiler OnT: "if you're not with us, you're against us" is a dangerous stance on all matters, but in heated "war" what other (reasonable to an extent; what extent?) PoVs are there? The only others I know of are "Turning the other cheek", "nonviolent protest", and "appeasement." In light of recent events I think the best option is all of the above, use the human psyche to ones advantage this usually involves self-sacrifice. Pfft, screw atheism, this is a discussion.
Self-Sacrifice (i.e) Jesus or a Marty in which one must surrender something to achieve a goal such as preservation or protection (ex: Grandpa). Could be surrendering one's own humanity or 'compassion' be considered self-sacrifice and is this 'crusade' a case of "the ends justifies the means"?
EDIT: Have you ever seen the movie, Hero? I'll tie it to my post later.
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Nice spoiler OnT: "if you're not with us, you're against us" is a dangerous stance on all matters, but in heated "war" what other (reasonable to an extent; what extent?) PoVs are there? The only others I know of are "Turning the other cheek", "nonviolent protest", and "appeasement." In light of recent events I think the best option is all of the above, use the human psyche to ones advantage this usually involves self-sacrifice. Pfft, screw atheism, this is a discussion.
Self-Sacrifice (i.e) Jesus or a Marty in which one must surrender something to achieve a goal such as preservation or protection (ex: Grandpa). Could be surrendering one's own humanity or 'compassion' be considered self-sacrifice and is this 'crusade' a case of "the ends justifies the means"?
We are not mutually opposed to each other, you know this. We are mutually opposed to the consequeces of the actions of those who spoil our game experience. Ends justify the means? I dunno, it's a big picture thing. I can't reconcile the 'collateral damage is planned and acceptable' thinking. Can there be a war to end all wars? I wish you well.
I don't like neutral. I do like zealots. And I recognize one when I see one. /SALUTE
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Grandpa wrote:
Judge wrote:
Grandpa wrote:
Spoiler + rebuttal
Nice spoiler OnT: "if you're not with us, you're against us" is a dangerous stance on all matters, but in heated "war" what other (reasonable to an extent; what extent?) PoVs are there? The only others I know of are "Turning the other cheek", "nonviolent protest", and "appeasement." In light of recent events I think the best option is all of the above, use the human psyche to ones advantage this usually involves self-sacrifice. Pfft, screw atheism, this is a discussion.
Self-Sacrifice (i.e) Jesus or a Marty in which one must surrender something to achieve a goal such as preservation or protection (ex: Grandpa). Could be surrendering one's own humanity or 'compassion' be considered self-sacrifice and is this 'crusade' a case of "the ends justifies the means"?
We are not mutually opposed to each other, you know this. We are mutually opposed to the consequeces of the actions of those who spoil our game experience. Ends justify the means? I dunno, it's a big picture thing. I can't reconcile the 'collateral damage is planned and acceptable' thinking. Can there be a war to end all wars? I wish you well.
And there in lies the why of it all. A war to end all wars... sounds appealing. In the movie Hero, the emperor to unite china had to kill all his rivals and fight many wars. There were no exceptions, kill or be killed ~ with us or against. The basic gist in a war movie, but in the end. All the killing had a purpose, it was to protect what the Emperor loved most: His homeland. He sacrificed compassion, pity, empathy, all for what? The preservation and protection of what he holds most dear to him. A War to end all Wars, he was the first Emperor of China.
Quote:
I wish you well.
Likewise.
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Can there be a war to end all wars? I wish you well.
And there in lies the why of it all. A war to end all wars... sounds appealing. In the movie Hero, the emperor to unite china had to kill all his rivals and fight many wars. There were no exceptions, kill or be killed ~ with us or against. The basic gist in a war movie, but in the end. All the killing had a purpose, it was to protect what the Emperor loved most: His homeland. He sacrificed compassion, pity, empathy, all for what? The preservation and protection of what he holds most dear to him. A War to end all Wars, he was the first Emperor of China. * Back to my point... There I am, using my own judgment (uncertain that it may be) and befriending a person who associates with botters. Enter the mad ultra extremist to join our party upon my invitation. I don't have scruples regarding who I will associate with. "They" do. I allow any and everybody to invite others in. We are fighting common enemies and bonding in the process. Somebody noticed my friend's guild tag. We are abandoned. I refuse to abandon my position and am shunned. Can this scenario happen?
You don't have to click this 'spoiler' but can if you want.
Spoiler!
Takes me back to Yahoo Christian Chat and another friend whose name was Isaiah68. There was another Yahoo chatroom back then called "The Lake of Fire" and known anti-religious people (like my old friend BloodWulf666) would congregate there.
Isaiah68 would go there (to the 'Lake of Fire' where known Satanists and Luciferians were know meet) too. Then he'd drag people from there to me. Yahoo would allow him to check what rooms his friends were in. Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't mind. Good conversation is difficult to come by sometimes, and you never know...
When I asked the Christian about it I wasn't quite like "WTH???" but more polite. I also said, "You know, there are NOT 68 chapters in the book of Isaiah." He replied with the quote,
The King James Version (Authorized) wrote:
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
He liked going and dragging people to come and speak to me because he had hope they would 'see the light'. His spirit led him to go to the 'enemy' and I could appreciate that too.
My point is that evangelism has its place even in war. Viva la legittimità
Sometimes less is more. When you see a wall of text it usually means you are trying to overwhelm someone with sheer volume and not information. It is not always the case but it always my first impression.
Honestly your narration is ponderous at it's best, loopier than a migrating bird with an ear infection at it's worst.
_________________ <<banned from SRF for rules violations: being a constant problem. -SG>>
We get it... your a kind generous saint who adopts cute pink bunnies and gives random people hugs to cheer them up. your a much better human then me. congrats.
too bad none of that will matter as you watch everything you love about silkroad be ripped apart and destroyed by the duel force of shitty joymax and greedy bots.
turn the other cheek and get slapped again. i for one will slap back twice as hard and put the mofo's in there place... under my feet.
if i gotta go to hell so that everyone around me can go to heaven, well sign up me for some BBQ baby.
_________________ Fly;lvl 90 s/s Warrior & LvL 6 Hunter [Avalon * Hero] Roses are red, violets are blue. NS is a kunt, and so are you!
We get it... your a kind generous saint who adopts cute pink bunnies and gives random people hugs to cheer them up. your a much better human then me. congrats.
too bad none of that will matter as you watch everything you love about silkroad be ripped apart and destroyed by the duel force of shitty joymax and greedy bots.
turn the other cheek and get slapped again. i for one will slap back twice as hard and put the mofo's in there place... under my feet.
if i gotta go to hell so that everyone around me can go to heaven, well sign up me for some BBQ baby.
Typical Fly.
_________________ <<banned from SRF for rules violations: being a constant problem. -SG>>
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Every where and No where
Fly wrote:
We get it... your a kind generous saint who adopts cute pink bunnies and gives random people hugs to cheer them up. your a much better human then me. congrats.
too bad none of that will matter as you watch everything you love about silkroad be ripped apart and destroyed by the duel force of shitty joymax and greedy bots.
turn the other cheek and get slapped again. i for one will slap back twice as hard and put the mofo's in there place... under my feet.
if i gotta go to hell so that everyone around me can go to heaven, well sign up me for some BBQ baby.
He isn't saying "turn the other cheek". Doing that defines a stance of neutrality, He is saying; sometimes conversions through peaceful methods are better than those through aggression. To much aggression hurts your goals, but I guess Fly is not unlike the First Emperor.
_________________ “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny” - Thomas Jefferson
Summary of Grandpa's post: Although I agree with some methods employed by Legit (so called), They can easily become lost in their goal (so called). Especially when one's goal controls them There are consequences.
I didn't say that I would turn the other cheek, what I said was that I would prefer to be shunned than join with certain people for reason. It's a choice, and in hindsight, it is one well made. Attitudes like this are classified as 'stressors' and decrease the health of the community. They are artificial and applied artificially, so meh. The word 'legit' means those who operate within the TOS (Terms of Service) and EULA (End User License Agreement). This (SRF) is a forum of free expression but there are limits. We are not to involve ourselves in personal attacks. Saying that you would slap then slap down again those who turn the other cheek is a personal attack. I don't mind. Here, have a cookie:
Greek has a method of expression that isn't found in English. 'We' think and speak of things and concepts like they were fixed events; either past events, current events or future events. Our English 'tense' reflects this: Was /// Is /// Will Be We don't think about the flow. Nor do we, as a culture, think about convergence and sustainability (yet). At least not as much as we need to.
There is a tense in Greek (and other languages) for verbs that happened in the past, continue through now and then proceed through the future. The flowing 'was//is//will be' tense, if you will. It is a consequential tense and includes 'real time' events. What we are doing NOW affects how we were perceived THEN as well as be applied to our future conversations and events.
Your concepts fail. They fail to acknowledge this (the past origins that continue) and I doubt you are able to conceive it. Very few are. 'We' are called 'The Ugly Americans' for such things. Arrogance combined with stupidity and short-sightedness. Sheeesh. Lethal combination. Lethal to 'us'. I didn't say that I'd turn the other cheek, actually the way it works is there is no need. When attacked I am defended by others. My son for instance is here with me reading what was written and laughing. He made me smile. So did you.
You want succinct? You were, are, & will be meh to me.
Saying that you would slap then slap down again those who turn the other cheek is a personal attack. I don't mind
re-read what i wrote. you might get a differnt meaning the 2nd time around.
Quote:
(you) turn the other cheek and get slapped again. i for one will slap back twice as hard (against the bots not those who turn the other cheek) and put the mofo's in there place... under my feet
_________________ Fly;lvl 90 s/s Warrior & LvL 6 Hunter [Avalon * Hero] Roses are red, violets are blue. NS is a kunt, and so are you!
Last edited by Fly on Tue May 06, 2008 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Saying that you would slap then slap down again those who turn the other cheek is a personal attack. I don't mind
re-read what i wrote. you might get a differnt meaning the 2nd time around.
Meh, you first. Teach your granny to suck eggs THEN try to teach Grandpa hermeneutics.
EDIT:
Spoiler!
You edited your above post for emphasis. There are rules, obviously you don't respect them, but there are. It's okay. The post on the first page (written in green) was from a guy who knows the rules. He also understands that I do as well, but that I hold them in contempt. Standard English vs. Queens English kinda thing. High Society and classes in general. I re-read and get it now.... but and still... Written documents are interpreted according to hermeneutics. What you wrote was,
Quote:
"We get it... your a kind generous saint ... your a much better human ...
...turn the other cheek and get slapped again. i for one will slap back twice as hard and put the mofo's in there place... under my feet."
The only way to understand who you will be slapping and putting under your feet is by way of context: those who turn the other cheek. Are you seriously trying to suggest that you think botters are Christ followers? To do so fails the test of 'common sense'.
If you are trying to apologize fine. If you didn't mean me when you posted, again fine and good. I can accept that. What I get from your post is that you don't like admitting when you're wrong, neither do I. I can accept that well enough and will revise my understanding of what you meant. Thank you.
Last edited by Grandpa on Tue May 06, 2008 12:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Do you really (100%) think that this post will have ANY influence what-so-ever? A game forum should not be taken so serious that people write entire essays, a game forum is to help each other when (technical) problems arise, and to share game experiences. Not to read essays with many .. 'off-topic' examples. For that, my friend, I can read a book.
_________________ <<banned from SRF for bot admission. -SG>>
Do you really (100%) think that this post will have ANY influence what-so-ever? A game forum should not be taken so serious that people write entire essays, a game forum is to help each other when (technical) problems arise, and to share game experiences. Not to read essays with many .. 'off-topic' examples. For that, my friend, I can read a book.
Point well made, I write because I enjoy writing. I play for similar reason. By the way, this is the 'OT' Forum. Oops, It was when I first posted. Must'a been moved.
@Fly and semi-OT: I don't mean to utterly disrespect you. I do utterly disrespect those who give no thought to consequence. But that's not you. IF I were in your group, I'd follow your rules. Seriously. But I'd try to negotiate with you. So you would see me doing my thing and playing it and you'd know that I was playing them and that I was a solid follower and maybe say (of me), "That's just Grandpa. Watch what he does, cause he's smart about it - but don't follow his example." <~~ that kind of thing.
I also wish that Chinese had AGGRO functions, because I don't mind drawing fire. It's what I do. I'm a recruiter by nature and a martyr by choice.
nightbloom wrote:
No offense but... Honestly your narration is ponderous at it's best, loopier than a migrating bird with an ear infection at it's worst.
Birds don't navigate through inner ear functions. But you are correct we do need a compass. Are you certain of yours?
Many migratory birds are remarkably faithful to previous nesting places. Though a bird might be able to come close to these sites merely by flying in a general direction during the course of migration, at some point more sophisticated navigating techniques must take over to guide the bird to its precise destination.
Stephen R. Covey wrote:
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Families: “It’s like the flight of an airplane. Before the plane takes off, the pilots have a flight plan. They know exactly where they’re going and start off in accordance with their plan. But during the course of the flight, wind, rain, turbulence, air traffic, human error, and other factors act upon that plane. They move it slightly in different directions so that most of the time that plane is not even on the prescribed flight path! Throughout the entire trip there are slight deviations from the flight plan. Weather systems or unusually heavy air traffic may even cause major deviations. But barring anything too major, the plane will arrive at its destination."
We as a group need a vision of our destination. We need a flight plan. But we also need a compass.
@Fly and semi-OT: I don't mean to utterly disrespect you. I do utterly disrespect those who give no thought to consequence. But that's not you. IF I were in your group, I'd follow your rules. Seriously. But I'd try to negotiate with you. So you would see me doing my thing and playing it and you'd know that I was playing them and that I was a solid follower and maybe say (of me), "That's just Grandpa. Watch what he does, cause he's smart about it - but don't follow his example." <~~ that kind of thing.
what about the consequence of not acting against the bots? have you not had a single close friend quit after total dissapointment and frusteration at a broken system?
trust me Grandpa, I know the consequence of my actions. I see it every day. When I go out to takla and see legits grinding without being ksed, thats the consequence of my actions. When I am thanked by random people I never met before, thats the consequence of my actions. When I watched the 2nd legit union of Venus (BlackHand Alliance) come to venus, fill up with tons of good players, and enjoy the game for the 1st time in 3 years, i can very easly see the consequence of my actions.
Its you that does not see the consequence of your actions. Legits that roll over have given the bots everything worth fighting for. As a result SRO is a shithole. The next time one of your close Silkroad friends gets frusterated with the shitty Log in, you should stop to think about the consequence of your actions and what you, along with every other legit that rolled over, have inflicted apon him.
And pls dont use big words when talking to me. I spent HighSchool getting drunk and collage lasted half a month for me before I got bored. My only real education came from playing Age of Empires for 5 years I like simple to read from the heart replies. None of that read between the lines BS.
_________________ Fly;lvl 90 s/s Warrior & LvL 6 Hunter [Avalon * Hero] Roses are red, violets are blue. NS is a kunt, and so are you!
You asked, "Please don't use big words". Fine, you first. Don't use monosyllabic reductionist bumpersticker slogan type catch phrases when speaking to me. I started the thread, bud.
Here we go again. I don't know what to make of you. As soon as I start the think you might be ok, there you go and I have to reconsider. You post saying that I am neutral, that I believe in turn the other cheek. I don't. Not in this case anyway.
When I say that I don't appreciate personal attacks after you have specifically said,
Quote:
"We get it... your a kind generous saint ... your a much better human ...
...turn the other cheek and get slapped again.
You do an edit after-the-fact.
Now you say "Its you that does not see the consequence of your actions. Legits that roll over have given the bots everything worth fighting for."
Spoiler!
Fly wrote:
Quote:
@Fly and semi-OT: I don't mean to utterly disrespect you. I do utterly disrespect those who give no thought to consequence. But that's not you. IF I were in your group, I'd follow your rules. Seriously. But I'd try to negotiate with you. So you would see me doing my thing and playing it and you'd know that I was playing them and that I was a solid follower and maybe say (of me), "That's just Grandpa. Watch what he does, cause he's smart about it - but don't follow his example." <~~ that kind of thing.
what about the consequence of not acting against the bots? have you not had a single close friend quit after total dissapointment and frusteration at a broken system?
trust me Grandpa, I know the consequence of my actions. I see it every day. When I go out to takla and see legits grinding without being ksed, thats the consequence of my actions. When I am thanked by random people I never met before, thats the consequence of my actions. When I watched the 2nd legit union of Venus (BlackHand Alliance) come to venus, fill up with tons of good players, and enjoy the game for the 1st time in 3 years, i can very easly see the consequence of my actions.
Its you that does not see the consequence of your actions. Legits that roll over have given the bots everything worth fighting for. As a result SRO is a shithole. The next time one of your close Silkroad friends gets frusterated with the shitty Log in, you should stop to think about the consequence of your actions and what you, along with every other legit that rolled over, have inflicted apon him.
And pls dont use big words when talking to me. I spent HighSchool getting drunk and collage lasted half a month for me before I got bored. My only real education came from playing Age of Empires for 5 years I like simple to read from the heart replies. None of that read between the lines BS.
That is a false accusation. I faint of this. Prove that I have 'rolled over' or that I have supported bots in any way -OR- offer a retraction. In tiny words, 'take that lie back, dude.' It is just another example of personal attack. Groundless personal attack.
Actually, idc. Shun me here in my thread, please. That's fine by me.
Grandpa wrote:
From my first post in this thread: No such comments may be construed to give offense in any way, if such comments do or are the cause of any such 'offense' kindly modify my original meaning such that any an all offense is removed without regard to the meaning of words or any other such trivial matters.
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. You're words are to wise for me 
I'm a recruiter by nature and a martyr by choice.