Bow build 70:70 GUIDE Updated 3.0!

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Eukanuba wrote:

Da_Realest wrote:

The point was to prove which build is better. The fighting ground was not equal. Of course the pure str is going to do significant less damage because his opponent is using armor. You're only saying this because you know if they had the same gear the 70:70 bow would lose. Don't believe me? Tell them to wear npc gear except for weapon and I guarantee the pure str will win.

The protection you wear does matter. Wearing armor or garment is the difference between life and death for int builds and pretty much all builds. Of course they are equally available but when you're trying to prove something like this the playing field needs to be near equal.

You fail at logic and reading comprehension.

You are criticizing him because he chooses to wear armor. Big deal. It doesn't matter what protector class he chooses. You must have a very bad memory, because right before you say "the playing field needs to be near equal" (which I am in agreement with), you say, "Of course [armor, protectors, and garments] are equally available..."

Equal availability is one of the most important things that level the playing field. You even used the words "equally" and "equal" to describe each situation and in the same sentence.

The type of protection he chooses to use is as much a part of his character as the stat distribution. Yes, it does matter in terms of partiality. It does not matter in terms of what is fair or not. What DOES need to be addressed his is use of alchemy, but you made no mention of that and instead whined that he was using armor against a str build. Your bias is evident when you imply that the hybrid should not be allowed to wear armor against a str build. To be completely fair in this situation, you should have proposed that they fight naked, which is actually not a bad idea. If the class of gear someone is going to use must be dictated by others, then EVERY build has the great potential to suck.

Again, if you are going to say that he sucks for almost dying (which, by the way, took place without fire shield and he did not yet pot back up to full HP after the first fight like his opponent most likely did), then you have to acknowledge that the str archer he fought sucks even harder for losing to him. If you are not willing to admit that, then you are clearly incapable of offering impartial insight on the matter.

I will again reiterate that I do not believe the video is proof of anything other than the fact that alchemy is helpful. Without knowing the information for both characters, trying to say one sucks over the other is moot, as no comparison can be drawn.

It seems you missed the word BUT. I'm growing tired of your insults toward me and going to start reporting you.

I didn't whine. I stated facts. He wore armor. If you want to test something then the conditions need to be as equal as possible. I didn't whine about anything, too bad you took it that way. Biased? Why do you think I said near equal? They both can fight naked in armor, garment, or whatever. We're trying to prove which build is better not a casual fight, that is why we need some controlled variables. I didn't need to state alchemy because its apparent that he has a good bit of it in order to obtain 80:80.

You couldn't see if he was still potting or not when the match began because the screen went blue. When it got to the fight the player in the third person perspective had already lost most of his hp so the fight may have been going for some time now.

I never said the 70:70 build was bad because of the video. My word still stands. I believe any str heavy bow build will do better than a 70:70 bow.

rbc3883 · **Joined:** Jul 2006 **Posts:** 19

Here is what I think of this ... :

When you make a bower, make a 80:80 hybrid.

When you don't like the idea, just make a pure (like me, i don't like hybrids, so im a spear nuker

not that hard to think heh).

Anyway all pure str bower turn into glavie/blade at higher lvls.

Sin · **Joined:** Jul 2006 **Posts:** 1113 **Location:** ---

I am not pointing fingers. However, I would like to give everyone a reminder that personal insults and attacks are not permitted, as per the forum rules. Please keep this thread a friendly debate.

Eukanuba · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 171

Da_Realest wrote:

It seems you missed the word BUT.

Negative. It was purposely left out for the sake of conciseness since it bears no impact on the statement. Just to appease your crying:

Da_Realest wrote:

Of course they are equally available but when you're trying to prove something like this the playing field needs to be near equal.

Your "but" clause only makes reference to the instance when the preceding and following statements are in question. In this case, in your own words, "when you're trying to prove something like this." Since the ENTIRE THREAD is about proving or disproving the validity of the build, there was no need to make mention of your beloved "but" in my previous post.

Da_Realest wrote:

I'm growing tired of your insults toward me and going to start reporting you.

Why wait? Don't fool yourself into thinking you're doing me any favors. If you're going to report me, do it now. The Mods thus far have shown themselves to be reasonable. If I can be banned for anything I've said to you in this thread, then this is not a community I want to be a part of.

Da_Realest wrote:

I didn't whine. I stated facts. He wore armor. If you want to test something then the conditions need to be as equal as possible. I didn't whine about anything, too bad you took it that way. Biased? Why do you think I said near equal?

You were whining. He's allowed to wear whatever class of protection he wants, as long as it is from the NPC. You've offered no support for the ridiculous parameter you've set, and it looks like you are actively trying to stack the rules against him. You need to answer this question: Why is he not allowed to wear armor? If your answer is "Because armor is strong against physical attacks,' you would do well to remember that his opponent was also free to wear whatever type of protection he wanted, be it armor, garments, or protector.

Da_Realest wrote:

They both can fight naked in armor, garment, or whatever. We're trying to prove which build is better not a casual fight, that is why we need some controlled variables. I didn't need to state alchemy because its apparent that he has a good bit of it in order to obtain 80:80.

Wearing armor, garments, or protector is the very definition of NOT being naked, thus they cannot "fight naked in armor, garment or whatever."

You're claiming that you want to control all variables and make things equal, yet you're willing to let him have all of the alchemic alterations to his gear that he has? Please. The str and int from his equipment is the most unbalancing factor in the equation. It has already been accepted that any build can own if they have enough alchemy to get +10% on each balance. The build that is should be scrutinized in this topic is the 70:70. The 80:80 is just a suggested goal that JadeKiss put out when started the topic.

Da_Realest wrote:

You couldn't see if he was still potting or not when the match began because the screen went blue. When it got to the fight the player in the third person perspective had already lost most of his hp so the fight may have been going for some time now.

Watch the video again a couple times. After the first fight, auto-pot puts him at about 65% HP. Right when the second fight starts, the hybrid takes a critical hit that knocks off 1815 HP, but there's a brief moment where you can see that his HP was at the same level as it was after he won the first fight.

Anyone who's ever been in or watched a series of cape fights knows that the loser generally resses, maybe pots up, then launches an attack at whoever killed him. Winners tend to stand there, most likely jamming a hot key so an attack will fire off when the five seconds of untouchable status expires. They most certainly did not have a "I'm ready, are you?" moment, because there is no new text in the speech box.

Da_Realest wrote:

I never said the 70:70 build was bad because of the video. My word still stands. I believe any str heavy bow build will do better than a 70:70 bow.

No one is questioning whether or not YOU believe a str archer to be better. We already know what you think. My criticism is about your observations and comments on the video.

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Eukanuba wrote:

Negative. It was purposely left out for the sake of conciseness since it bears no impact on the statement. Just to appease your crying:

Yea, I know. You ignored it just to prove your're right.

Eukanuba wrote:

Your "but" clause only makes reference to the instance when the preceding and following statements are in question. In this case, in your own words, "when you're trying to prove something like this." Since the ENTIRE THREAD is about proving or disproving the validity of the build, there was no need to make mention of your beloved "but" in my previous post.

Then there is no need for you to point fingers if you already know. You're not against either build so why start a argument and insult one side of the opposition when you're supposedly just mediating? Let them defend their build.

Eukanuba wrote:

Why wait? Don't fool yourself into thinking you're doing me any favors. If you're going to report me, do it now. The Mods thus far have shown themselves to be reasonable. If I can be banned for anything I've said to you in this thread, then this is not a community I want to be a part of.

Never said I was doing you any favors. You love to draw conclusions. Yea, I already reported you. I'm sorry thats the only way you can attempt to make your post seem more valid. I'll quote the insults and the shots you've taken at me.

Eukanuba wrote:

Please educate yourself before you look stupid again.

Eukanuba wrote:

You fail at logic and reading comprehension.

Eukanuba wrote:

...you made no mention of that and instead whined that he was using armor against a str build.

Eukanuba wrote:

Just to appease your crying:

Its not what you say but its how its perceived. I'm pretty sure everyone can perceive that you are taking shots at me. Pretty harsh diction for someone thats supposedly not taking sides.

Eukanuba wrote:

Wearing armor, garments, or protector is the very definition of NOT being naked, thus they cannot "fight naked in armor, garment or whatever."

You're claiming that you want to control all variables and make things equal, yet you're willing to let him have all of the alchemic alterations to his gear that he has? Please. The str and int from his equipment is the most unbalancing factor in the equation. It has already been accepted that any build can own if they have enough alchemy to get +10% on each balance. The build that is should be scrutinized in this topic is the 70:70. The 80:80 is just a suggested goal that JadeKiss put out when started the topic.

Thats not the point I was making. You can draw conclusions to insult me but you try not to draw conclusions to make a definite argument. All you want to do is flame. The point was having controlled variables. Something that they both have thats equal . Be it they are both in armor, protector, naked, or whatever. And anyone clearly reading seen that I no where said he couldn't wear armor. I just said near equal gear. You're just drawing negative conclusions again. It doesn't take much alchemy to get your build to 80:80 from 70:70 at that level. And who knows how much alchemy the pure str already had.

I do know that any str heavy bow build in near equal gear or equal gear against a 70:70 bow is going win. Still waiting for you or anyone to prove me wrong.

Eukanuba wrote:

Watch the video again a couple times. After the first fight, auto-pot puts him at about 65% HP. Right when the second fight starts, the hybrid takes a critical hit that knocks off 1815 HP, but there's a brief moment where you can see that his HP was at the same level as it was after he won the first fight.

Anyone who's ever been in or watched a series of cape fights knows that the loser generally resses, maybe pots up, then launches an attack at whoever killed him. Winners tend to stand there, most likely jamming a hot key so an attack will fire off when the five seconds of untouchable status expires. They most certainly did not have a "I'm ready, are you?" moment, because there is no new text in the speech box.

The str bow died and ressed. The 70:70 bow hp was potting with his health at about 65% as you said. So you're telling me that during the 5 secs they had to wait before they could attack again the 70:70 archer's health stayed the same? If you pause at .58 you can see that the 70:70 bow had just got done using beserker arrow so they were fighting before it went from the blue screen to the fight.

My opinion towards all bow builds: If you're using strong bow in the middle of a fight, then you're not a good archer.

Eukanuba wrote:

My criticism is about your observations and comments on the video.

My subject matter is about your observations and comments towards my post.

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

The second round is too controversial, as there's not enough evidences supporting either side. Unless the creator says something. Which means, for now, second round should be label as void.

The video does say that an eighty-eighty bow user build can beat a pure STR build bow user.

Eukanuba · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 171

Da_Realest wrote:

Yea, I know. You ignored it just to prove your're right.

If that's what you have to tell yourself to feel better, go ahead. Anyone who has a competent grasp of the English language understood what I said, and I get a nagging feeling that you understand as well, but are unwilling to admit it.

Da_Realest wrote:

Then there is no need for you to point fingers if you already know. You're not against either build so why start a argument and insult one side of the opposition when you're supposedly just mediating? Let them defend their build.

I have never made the claim that I am serving as a mediator in this thread. I simply want to know the truth, and that is all. Both sides are welcome and encouraged to put for their arguments, and if I see holes in either side's claims, I will take shots at them.

Da_Realest wrote:

Never said I was doing you any favors. You love to draw conclusions. Yea, I already reported you. I'm sorry thats the only way you can attempt to make your post seem more valid. I'll quote the insults and the shots you've taken at me.

Eukanuba wrote:

Please educate yourself before you look stupid again.

Eukanuba wrote:

You fail at logic and reading comprehension.

Eukanuba wrote:

...you made no mention of that and instead whined that he was using armor against a str build.

Eukanuba wrote:

Just to appease your crying:

Its not what you say but its how its perceived. I'm pretty sure everyone can perceive that you are taking shots at me. Pretty harsh diction for someone thats supposedly not taking sides.

I'll admit to harsh dictation, as you put it, but you believe that is flaming you need to grow a thicker skin. Every time I have said something "mean" to you, it was always supported within the context of the post it appears in. Furthermore, every instance was preceded with you first showing contempt towards me. Would you have preferred that I replied to everything you said with:
- STFU, Douchebag
- ur n effin idi0t!!!!!!1111111
- ur mom !!! LoLz!!!!!

I am not taking a side in terms of the hybrid vs the str archers, however, when someone spouts out things like "archers in real life were only support" without knowing anything about it, I will come down on them. Same goes for logic that is blatantly flawed. It's not that I am claiming to know all facts about all things; I simply avoid opening my mouth when I don't know, which is exactly why I am not declaring one bow build to be better than the other.

Da_Realest wrote:

Thats not the point I was making. You can draw conclusions to insult me but you try not to draw conclusions to make a definite argument. All you want to do is flame. The point was having controlled variables. Something that they both have thats equal . Be it they are both in armor, protector, naked, or whatever. And anyone clearly reading seen that I no where said he couldn't wear armor. I just said near equal gear. You're just drawing negative conclusions again. It doesn't take much alchemy to get your build to 80:80 from 70:70 at that level. And who knows how much alchemy the pure str already had.

I do know that any str heavy bow build in near equal gear or equal gear against a 70:70 bow is going win. Still waiting for you or anyone to prove me wrong.

You're trying to make it look like I'm picking on you for the hell of it so you can avoid the issue. If by "definite argument" you mean that you want me to choose either the hybrid or the str, that is something I cannot do given the current amount of information. You can try all you want to make me look bad because of that, but I doubt you will succeed.

The fact stands that the equal availability is the equalizing element in protective gear. Yes, he wore armor. I don't see why you are making such a fuss over it. The class of protection he chooses is as much a part of his build as his skills.

By the way, according to the character builder, it would take a total of fifty-five additional stat points, twenty int and thirty-five str, to take a level 48 69:70 build to an 80:80 balance. Seems like a lot of alchemy to me.

You are correct in saying we don't know how what kind of gear the str archer had, but when you say, "It doesn't take much alchemy to get your build to 80:80 from 70:70 at that level. And who knows how much alchemy the pure str already had." it looks like you are actually DEFENDING the hybrid's performance. Considering how staunch of a believer you are in the str archer concept, it looks like you're only saying that to offer a contrary statement to what I've said about the hybrid's alchemy being an overpowering factor.

Da_Realest wrote:

The str bow died and ressed. The 70:70 bow hp was potting with his health at about 65% as you said. So you're telling me that during the 5 secs they had to wait before they could attack again the 70:70 archer's health stayed the same? If you pause at .58 you can see that the 70:70 bow had just got done using beserker arrow so they were fighting before it went from the blue screen to the fight.

My opinion towards all bow builds: If you're using strong bow in the middle of a fight, then you're not a good archer.

You're right. I didn't catch that first explosion arrow. However, I still think he did not pot up before the second fight. After the str archer res'd, you can see that the hybrid is jamming the hot keys because he is getting the notice telling him he cannot attack during untouchable status. His hotkey bar is visible, and he does not have pots on it. Also, it appears that he is using small pots. I'll admit it is possible he potted during the blue screen phase, but I do not think it was likely.

As for using strong bow in the middle of a fight, I'd normally agree with you. Strong bow should not be used in the middle of a fight because you are prone to being stunned, knocked down, or knocked back. But when fighting another archer, the long casting time isn't as much of a drawback. It's clear part of the fight is cut off, but I think the video catches the vast majority of it, considering it was about the same length as the first fight.

Da_Realest wrote:

Eukanuba wrote:

My criticism is about your observations and comments on the video.

My subject matter is about your observations and comments towards my post.

Way to take things out of context again, champ. You lay accusations of maliciousness on me when you are the one who has to pick and choose from the things I've said so you can try and formulate a come back.

Vegetto · **Joined:** Feb 2007 **Posts:** 20 **Location:**

Well guys i think the 70:70 build is pretty good,
But a pure str archer is also good BUT i think i prefer the hybrid.
Full str bow have thier pros and contra arguments !
Fact is full str bow cant win a pvp fight against blader/glavier but crit is based on luck.
You cant just fighting your victim till you got 3 crit in a row to kill him....
I would prefer the avarage damage to kill my victims.

Well, but i dont want to say that full str bower sux, because they do a great job in jobwars but only as supporters, i belibe that the 70:70 build can win also a 1vs1 against a glavier without lots of crits :)
but thats my opinion !

glavie · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 1195 **Location:**

I am glad to see this thread going strong.

Thanks Jadekiss for creating such a volitile thread. The passion seen is a testament to the validity of this build.

I still think we should compare the 70:70 bow to a 70:70 spear because many people including myself have begun to build a hybrid bow. I would like to know wether I can reroll all my hard work if this build isn't for me. I am sure that others are wondering as well.

Currently I am lvl 32 with a 9lvl gap. This means that I dont have Bezerker arrow, strong bow, nukes, or phantom.
What I do have is garment sos boots, chest, and som hood and pants all +3. Almost max alchemy of str int parry ratio and +120 hp on sos/som items.

My weapon is a SOM +3 bow full blues.

My balance is 85:75 because I was full str untill lvl 18.

I am mentioning all this because It is embarassing to watch me PVP. I can take down some nukers with plain weapons and I assume plain equipment.

Everyone else owns me. If I use vigors I can make the fights last longer but I still Loose.

I am not giving up on this build and I look forward to closing my skill gap when I am done farming. But I would think that my gear would make up for my skill gap, especially the SOM bow.

My bow has higher Phys and Mag attack rating then my girlfriends sos+3 glavie yet she can kill me in about 10-15 hits without a stun and her health never drops below half.(she is lvl 32 with a 7 lvl gap)

I figured okay i am in garms(bad for phys absorbtion) andher gear is as good or better than mine so lets fight naked.

Guess what she 3 hit me dead no crit. Im like WTF my bow is more powerful than her glavie.
I never expected to be the best at pvp, but I was hoping to be able to hold my own.
So I just pray that at higher levels this build truly shines.

I am hoping that a high level like IwannaBeMade can test the nuking ability of this build with a NPC spear against a NPC bow as i mentioned earlier. I think that 80:80 maybe a good bow build, but it might be even better for a spear. I am not saying bow suks, I would like to know all of the pros and cons of this build compared to all others.

scott91 · **Joined:** Mar 2007 **Posts:** 160 **Location:**

is to to late for 2:1 int nuker to go 70:70 bow?

glavie · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 1195 **Location:**

scott91 wrote:

is to to late for 2:1 int nuker to go 70:70 bow?

I would assume you can still go bow.
First check your characters current stats then go to http://bobtheveg.dyndns.org/SRO/Char_Build_Applet/

and you can find out how many levels it will take to change your ballance. to 70:70

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:05 pm

well im glad that this thread is still alive !
People are still discussing about the bow theory

Well @glavie a spear 80:80 would do much more damage than a 80:80 bow, that is a fact spear chars are the strongest one in SRO
but why should you go bow ? bow has a range bonus which almost kill you victim befor it reached to you.
Well, about your pvp statement, you know why you lose ? a recommend gear for this build is protector or armor but not garment... and you cant compare low lvl pvp =) you dont have the berserk arrow yet
I.WANNA.BE.MADE wear armor against a full str in garment, and he won.
full str chars usually wear garm and full int = armor
so but a hybrid can choose bewteen protect or armor (if he is more absed on int)!
i would be glad if you give this build more time

just lvl finish you farming and change the gear !

@scott91 no its not to late a 2:1 int char has a balance of kinda 68:73 so why shouldnt it be late to make it to 70:70 ?

btw you play on troy ?

sry guys that i didnt post here earlier, but i have RL and i didnt have time =)

NuclearSilo · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:25 pm

@Jadekiss, where is the video and guide from Wind that u promised? :twisted:

glavie · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 1195 **Location:**

Dont worry jadekiss I am not giving up on this build. It is however alittle upsetting to be doing so badly at pvp. You are right garms arent the best choice for pvp, i am wearing them right now for the speed increase. At higher lvl when I have higher grass walk I will switch to protector.

Ok here are the pros and cons list for 80:80 spear vs. bow.

Spear Pros:
stun
knockback
1000 extra Hp
More damage?( I hope to get actual numbers)

Spear Cons:
Only 2 ranged attacks-nuke and throw attack
not as much range as bow

Bow pros:
4.4m distance increase buff.
all attacks are ranged

Bow cons:
no disabling moves
less damage?

When I am done farming in about 3 weeks I will test the damage difference between
spear nukevs strong bow
spear nuke vs antidevil crit

unfortunately my balance is 85:75 not 80:80 and I am below the level where this build is supposed to show true potential.

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:34 pm

@NuclearSilo, haha well, i didnt promise that.
But Wind said to me he will post his guidei n this forum, but now a few weeks passed already ...
i think he wont post his guide + vids in the next few weeks
i thought he would keep his own word, but it seems not to be !
But ok, now i hope I.WANNA.BE.MADE will do a great job and post some more pvp vids later of his char.

im sry for wasting you time here, to see Wind's guide + vids

nvm i gave it up to talk with Wind.
End of the story

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:40 pm

glavie wrote:

Dont worry jadekiss I am not giving up on this build. It is however alittle upsetting to be doing so badly at pvp. You are right garms arent the best choice for pvp, i am wearing them right now for the speed increase. At higher lvl when I have higher grass walk I will switch to protector.

Ok here are the pros and cons list for 80:80 spear vs. bow.

Spear Pros:
stun
knockback
1000 extra Hp
More damage?( I hope to get actual numbers)

Spear Cons:
Only 2 ranged attacks-nuke and throw attack
not as much range as bow

Bow pros:
4.4m distance increase buff.
all attacks are ranged

Bow cons:
no disabling moves
less damage?

When I am done farming in about 3 weeks I will test the damage difference between
spear nukevs strong bow
spear nuke vs antidevil crit

unfortunately my balance is 85:75 not 80:80 and I am below the level where this build is supposed to show true potential.

nice to hear that !
almost all hybrid builds show their true potential on higher lvl like 52+
so i think we cant compare it right now with low lvl pvp
(im just lvl 24 lol ...farming.. i hate it but: no pain no gain )
but i like this build, i like it more than other builds dont know why

well a bow char can do a great job in pvp if he uses the run + hit tactic.
Bow isnt a tanker weapon, but almost all bow ppl play in pvp as a tanker..just standing and shooting

btw i wont finish farming till summer XD i know im lazy but i dont have GT and sp farming is a must for me

but i still believe this build has a big potential

Alfred · **Joined:** Mar 2006 **Posts:** 1545 **Location:** .se

I need 30 more sp to get my fire nuke to the same lvl as the rest of my skills are. It is only the first book since I'm lvl 37, but it will be fun to try out what damage this build will do with nukes compared to the bow skills.

My balance with gear is atm 73% phys and 81% mag so it will be more in favour for the nuking skill. But better then nothing I suppose.

Will post it later tonight.

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Eukanuba wrote:

If that's what you have to tell yourself to feel better, go ahead. Anyone who has a competent grasp of the English language understood what I said, and I get a nagging feeling that you understand as well, but are unwilling to admit it.

And you admitted to ignoring the word "but." That lead to the whole conflict.

Eukanuba wrote:

I have never made the claim that I am serving as a mediator in this thread. I simply want to know the truth, and that is all. Both sides are welcome and encouraged to put for their arguments, and if I see holes in either side's claims, I will take shots at them.

You love to draw conclusions about me so I thought I'd draw some about you.

Eukanuba wrote:

I'll admit to harsh dictation, as you put it, but you believe that is flaming you need to grow a thicker skin. Every time I have said something "mean" to you, it was always supported within the context of the post it appears in. Furthermore, every instance was preceded with you first showing contempt towards me. Would you have preferred that I replied to everything you said with:
- STFU, Douchebag
- ur n effin idi0t!!!!!!1111111
- ur mom !!! LoLz!!!!!

I am not taking a side in terms of the hybrid vs the str archers, however, when someone spouts out things like "archers in real life were only support" without knowing anything about it, I will come down on them. Same goes for logic that is blatantly flawed. It's not that I am claiming to know all facts about all things; I simply avoid opening my mouth when I don't know, which is exactly why I am not declaring one bow build to be better than the other.

I could care less about what you say and none of your insults are getting to me. Its for the sake of avoiding conflict. Some of those words were unnecessary. If you had said something like, "STFU" then I wouldn't have taken that as an insult but as a person thats insulting their own intelligence.

Yea, you've proven you're willing to dwell off topic to prove you're right.

Eukanuba wrote:

You're trying to make it look like I'm picking on you for the hell of it so you can avoid the issue. If by "definite argument" you mean that you want me to choose either the hybrid or the str, that is something I cannot do given the current amount of information. You can try all you want to make me look bad because of that, but I doubt you will succeed.

I don't care about your status or anyone's status since I disregard that in a discussion that doesn't pertain to one's status.

Eukanuba wrote:

The fact stands that the equal availability is the equalizing element in protective gear. Yes, he wore armor. I don't see why you are making such a fuss over it. The class of protection he chooses is as much a part of his build as his skills.

Controlled variables. You can use any gear you want in fighting other builds but we need some sort of controlled variable when a 70:70 bow fights a str based bow to establish one fact of which build is dominant over the other in that area.

Eukanuba wrote:

By the way, according to the character builder, it would take a total of fifty-five additional stat points, twenty int and thirty-five str, to take a level 48 69:70 build to an 80:80 balance. Seems like a lot of alchemy to me.

You are correct in saying we don't know how what kind of gear the str archer had, but when you say, "It doesn't take much alchemy to get your build to 80:80 from 70:70 at that level. And who knows how much alchemy the pure str already had." it looks like you are actually DEFENDING the hybrid's performance. Considering how staunch of a believer you are in the str archer concept, it looks like you're only saying that to offer a contrary statement to what I've said about the hybrid's alchemy being an overpowering factor.

Its not hard to get that much alchemy at that level for the average player if you try. It doesn't require near perfect alchemy to achieve the 80:80 build at level 48 as it does at level 80.

I support the str based archers but that doesn't mean I have to be biased towards them. If the hybrid does better in a category then the hybrid does better. I'm not going to try and formulate a dumb reason for str based archers to better. I'm a archer player, so if the 70:70 bow turns out to be the best build for archers then I will happily make one.

Eukanuba wrote:

You're right. I didn't catch that first explosion arrow. However, I still think he did not pot up before the second fight. After the str archer res'd, you can see that the hybrid is jamming the hot keys because he is getting the notice telling him he cannot attack during untouchable status. His hotkey bar is visible, and he does not have pots on it. Also, it appears that he is using small pots. I'll admit it is possible he potted during the blue screen phase, but I do not think it was likely.

As for using strong bow in the middle of a fight, I'd normally agree with you. Strong bow should not be used in the middle of a fight because you are prone to being stunned, knocked down, or knocked back. But when fighting another archer, the long casting time isn't as much of a drawback. It's clear part of the fight is cut off, but I think the video catches the vast majority of it, considering it was about the same length as the first fight.

I guess its ok for a 70:70 bow to use strongbow in the middle of a fight against other archers but I don't see a point in str based archers using it since criticals are more important. Anti devil and arrow combo afterwards is more efficient for str based archers.

I can make videos of my str based bow pvping to back my arguments.

Eukanuba wrote:

Way to take things out of context again, champ. You lay accusations of maliciousness on me when you are the one who has to pick and choose from the things I've said so you can try and formulate a come back.

Just doing what you do, champ.

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:40 pm

Oh man i love it when Da_Realest start to discuss XD

@Da_Realest im not trying to insult you =) just love it to read your long long long posts, but Eukanuba is also pretty good in that fact xD

well i never saw a really good str archer in pvp after the new alchemy thing !
So Da_Realest pls show us some vid of your char in pvp with a good hit + run tactic to win against a full str glavier !
im sure the 70:70 build can win but a full str ? never saw

so im would be glad to see you in action !

well, we shouldnt blaming each other again, im the thread opener so blame me if you want, but dont blame each other xD
dam it i would never thought that this one thread would be so hot ! o.O

well, i hope to see vids from Da_Realest and from I.WANNA.BE.MADE
(im sry i cant make one... farming noob on lvl 24

)

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:35 pm

Well, i got some new news for you guys !
I talked with Wind i logged in on the right time and could talk with him !
First of all, i asked him why he didnt post his guide here ?
He said he is in busy with his real life and "graduate thesi" so he couldnt post a guide.
But he said he will post it in 1-2 weeks if he isnt that busy anymore with his RL !

Well, i talked also with him about the fact between pure str archer and 80:80 archer build, about their weakness and strenght.
But i will keep that for me

dam im an evil lol
if i would post it now i would take Wind the chance to say it with his own word

so be easy and wait, but you guys can still discuss here

Alfred · **Joined:** Mar 2006 **Posts:** 1545 **Location:** .se

Here are my spear nuking/bow skills screen shots:

my balance is 73% phys 81% mag with gear
used a npc lvl 32 spear and bow

flame wave-arrow lvl 2 mag at power 135-225 (250%)
avarage damage: 2988

anti devil bow-wave lvl 4 phys at power 77-104 (200%)
avarage damage: 2354

with crit
avarage damage: 3177

strong bow-spirit lvl 2 phys at power 77-104 (350%)
avarage damage: 4089

Hope these numbers provided anything usefull.

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Alfred wrote:

Here are my spear nuking/bow skills screen shots:

my balance is 73% phys 81% mag with gear
used a npc lvl 32 spear and bow

flame wave-arrow lvl 2 mag at power 135-225 (250%)
avarage damage: 2988

anti devil bow-wave lvl 4 phys at power 77-104 (200%)
avarage damage: 2354

with crit
avarage damage: 3177

strong bow-spirit lvl 2 phys at power 77-104 (350%)
avarage damage: 4089

Hope these numbers provided anything usefull.

I see...

I'm a lvl 38 str hybrid. Here's my stats.

My build is 98% str and 38% int with the npc bow. Its 99% str and 40% int with my normal bow. I did these test with a npc bow.

Extreme Fire Force lvl 4 83-138 (100%)

Anti Devil Bow - Wave lvl 3 phy power 70-95 (200%)
Average Damage: 1813

With Crit
Average Damage: 3083

Strong Bow - Spirit lvl 1 phy power 70-95 (350%)
Average Damage: 3247

Alfred · **Joined:** Mar 2006 **Posts:** 1545 **Location:** .se

I guess I can try without any extra int and str on me also. It gets a little biased towards the nuke since I have way more extra in then str. But that will be tomorrow because I'm going to bed now.

Thanks for the stats to compare with da_realest

oh forgot to mention my imbue was extreme fire force lvl 5 90-151

churromai · **Joined:** Mar 2007 **Posts:** 8

aight this sounds pretty tight but....

how do we get this char rolling bro?

from lvl 1-XX how should we put the points in, i would REALLY REALLY like to use this build, plz tell me

P.S. MAJOR props Jade, ur awesome

Alfred · **Joined:** Mar 2006 **Posts:** 1545 **Location:** .se

churromai wrote:

aight this sounds pretty tight but....

how do we get this char rolling bro?

from lvl 1-XX how should we put the points in, i would REALLY REALLY like to use this build, plz tell me

P.S. MAJOR props Jade, ur awesome

everytime you level up, take off any gear that has either str or int on it

press c

add your int and str so the phys and mag balance stay 70/70% (think only 69/70 and 70/69 is doable)

the balance is displayed below of where you put in the stats

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Alfred wrote:

I guess I can try without any extra int and str on me also. It gets a little biased towards the nuke since I have way more extra in then str. But that will be tomorrow because I'm going to bed now.

Thanks for the stats to compare with da_realest

oh forgot to mention my imbue was extreme fire force lvl 5 90-151

No problem. My gear also had some alchemy on it. My normal bow just had 3 str and 3 int if I remember correctly which is why I stated my balance before and after I switched to the npc bow. I'll test tomorrow the damage naked with the npc bow.

churromai · **Joined:** Mar 2007 **Posts:** 8

Alfred wrote:

churromai wrote:

aight this sounds pretty tight but....

how do we get this char rolling bro?

from lvl 1-XX how should we put the points in, i would REALLY REALLY like to use this build, plz tell me

P.S. MAJOR props Jade, ur awesome

everytime you level up, take off any gear that has either str or int on it

press c

add your int and str so the phys and mag balance stay 70/70% (think only 69/70 and 70/69 is doable)

the balance is displayed below of where you put in the stats

so there is no sertain order i just have to try to get 70/70 without armor?

Eukanuba · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 171

Da_Realest wrote:

And you admitted to ignoring the word "but." That lead to the whole conflict.

There is a difference between ignoring something and not retyping something. There was no need for me to include it because a) it would bear no impact on the point being made to anyone with a decent understanding of English grammar, and b) any one who who read my post would have already read your post and should know what you said.

As far as the first shot fired, it came from your pistol:

Da_Realest wrote:

You're only saying this because you know if they had the same gear the 70:70 bow would lose

That statement was an attempt to discredit me simply because I brought scrutiny to your statements. I don't know if he would lose or not. That's the whole point of the thread. You're the one who made the assumption without proof, and you implied that I have some sort of hidden agenda at the same time.

Da_Realest wrote:

You love to draw conclusions about me so I thought I'd draw some about you.

Every conclusion I have come to about you is directly reflected in what you have written, including promoting ignorance as fact, your inability to cope with disagreeing thought, and your unwillingness to follow context. Your opinion of me comes from the belief that you think I'm being mean to you.

Da_Realest wrote:

none of your insults are getting to me.

Well, that is indeed good news.

Da_Realest wrote:

Yea, you've proven you're willing to dwell off topic to prove you're right.

Anyone can lay unjustified one-liners. If you really believe that I do that, bring something to the table to support your claim.

Da_Realest wrote:

I don't care about your status or anyone's status since I disregard that in a discussion that doesn't pertain to one's status.

Then what is this "definite argument" that you want me to have?

Da_Realest wrote:

Controlled variables. You can use any gear you want in fighting other builds but we need some sort of controlled variable when a 70:70 bow fights a str based bow to establish one fact of which build is dominant over the other in that area.

I understand what you are trying to say, but there is no point. Look at it this way: We know is is an 80:80 hybrid, which means he does not excel in defending against either method of attack. To compensate for this, he uses the fire wall to cover the lack of magic defense, and he uses armor to cover for the physical defense. The armor is a part of his build and playing style. Go look at any str glaive guide, and it will most likely tell you to wear garments because your str points give you sufficient defense against magic attacks. Nuker guides will most likely tell you to wear armor because it will compensate for your physical weakness. At a glance, one would think a hybrid should wear protector class gear, but I think I.WANNA.BE.MADE has rather ingeniously found a way to economically get around it. You already have the fire tree, so why not put it to use? Again, the armor and fire wall together seem to be a part of his overall build and strategy.

Additionally, his opponent was free to use any form of protection he wanted. If you are going to try to control the variables that tightly, you need to get equally upset with the str archer for not wearing whatever you feel would make things equal.

Da_Realest wrote:

Its not hard to get that much alchemy at that level for the average player if you try. It doesn't require near perfect alchemy to achieve the 80:80 build at level 48 as it does at level 80.

I agree, but this is a straw man argument. I never said or implied that it requires the near perfect alchemy of a capped character. And it's not a matter of how hard it is (you are of the contention that it is not difficult, but I disagree with that sentiment; however the difficulty of obtaining the alchemy is not relevant to the question at hand). The fact is that fifty-five extra stat points is a lot. It's the stat equivalent to having eighteen extra levels, just without the access to better gears and skills. Even more, it gives him a combined 21% increase in his damages!

Da_Realest wrote:

I support the str based archers but that doesn't mean I have to be biased towards them. If the hybrid does better in a category then the hybrid does better. I'm not going to try and formulate a dumb reason for str based archers to better. I'm a archer player, so if the 70:70 bow turns out to be the best build for archers then I will happily make one.

It looks like we have some sort of bizzaro common ground here. I find it amusing that you believe that his alchemy (55 whopping points!) is not an unbalancing factor, but his choice in protector class is. But when you say, "If the hybrid does better in a category, then the hybrid does better." What exactly, in your opinion, is he doing better? Your response to the video was along the lines of, "The hybrid almost died, even though he had firewall and armor." I am actually asking you for clarification and am not criticizing you.

Furthermore, I'd like to ask you to write out what you believe to be fair criteria for a fight. In fact, anyone else out there reading this, I'd like your input as well. I've already stated that I think using only NPC gear is sufficient. It should go without saying, levels and mastery gaps should be as close as possible.

Da_Realest wrote:

I guess its ok for a 70:70 bow to use strongbow in the middle of a fight against other archers but I don't see a point in str based archers using it since criticals are more important. Anti devil and arrow combo afterwards is more efficient for str based archers.

I can make videos of my str based bow pvping to back my arguments.

Before you make videos (and by all means, please do - the more videos the better), please tell me what your argument is. If your position is that it's retarded for a str archer to use strong bow in the middle of the fight against another archer, I am not going to agree or disagree with you as I have not out enough thought into the matter. All I've said about that is it is less disadvantageous for an archer to use strongbow in the middle of a fight against another archer than it would be to do it against any other weapon. But, in the video, it was the hybrid who launched the strong bow after the explosion arrow, not the other way around, so I am not really sure at what you are getting at. I am particularly confused, because it was actually you who pointed that out to me.

Da_Realest wrote:

Just doing what you do, champ.

I have to disagree, since in some posts I've actually had to go back and point out what I was responding to in the things you've quoted. All of the posts are available to everyone for re-reading, so I'll let the audience be the judge of that.

IguanaRampage · **Joined:** Jul 2006 **Posts:** 2483 **Location:** Changing

STOP THE DAM FLAMES!!!!! :banghead:

MastaChiefX · **Joined:** Nov 2006 **Posts:** 4526 **Location:** Life.

Wow, this thread is still alive.

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