Bow build 70:70 GUIDE Updated 3.0!

senapanaga · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 1577 **Location:**

Dont you worry bout it.

My friend is buying Me some special-time (i cant say bot time cuz i dont want this post dleted nor this thread locked. oops.)

So yaaaa ill get fully farmed. and ill get to lvl 80. and it wont be that much longer. so please hold on ^^

ATM, even though i HATE when people tlak about low lvl pvp, Im a lvl 20 with lvl 11 skills, and i took out a lvl 24 glaive, And i can take on a lvl 29 Spear user.

So well just have to wait and see. If its the same way at the cap as it is now then yes this will be the best bow build ever. (altho i am using a sos+4 lvl 16 bow and have two pieces of sos gear. im pretty sure my opponents didnt. Plus the spear didnt have pills so my ice imbue kind of just owned her. so thats not really a fair... Example.. )

alright im out.

Megaman · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 468 **Location:**

You can't base the good/bad interpretations of an experimental build by:

-It's balances with full STR and INT on its gear
-The rate it uses pots (nukers save hp pots better than this build if they can 1hit+shout, which is what they should be training on)
-Mentioning how easy it is to kill 2x/3x mobs in pve

A crit on a antidevil/strong/beserker by a str/bower would be extremely damaging to this build.

a 80% magical balance doesn't mean nukes will do shit damage on you. Sure, the damage from them will be lowered slightly, but the threat remains.

If you wear garments, and then say your balances are at 8x%, therefore I am invincible to nukers, you will be toast to any str build. Unless you can kill them in the time they kill you (which is maybe 3 hits, 2 if it's a crit, or have uber gear(which, by-the-way is something we should NOT be relying on)) then you are toast. Simple.

No matter what build you are doing, you will at some time in your sro career get into 1v1 fights. Jobbing solo, caping, whatever. I never implied that str bowers were good in 1v1, they are good support until someone from the crowd decides to take after you. Then what do you do?

You crit, or rather try to. If you don't crit on one of your hardcore shots, You will most likely die. Even for str-bowers, because of the shitty defence of bow. Thats why people go pure-str, for the backup HP and crits.

discuss.

Eukanuba · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 171

MegaMan wrote:

You can't base the good/bad interpretations of an experimental build by:

-It's balances with full STR and INT on its gear

Agreed. In fact, I posted earlier in this thread that any real test of power must be done armed and equipped with NPC gear only

MegaMan wrote:

-The rate it uses pots (nukers save hp pots better than this build if they can 1hit+shout, which is what they should be training on)
-Mentioning how easy it is to kill 2x/3x mobs in pve

Those are valid statements.

Your counterargument about nukers only address their HP pot consumption. HP and MP pots are equally priced and have infinite availability, assuming you can afford them. Pot economy is a valid concern in terms of gold and saving inventory space, especially if you have to carry arrows.

Some people just want to kill mobs, so let them have at it. In a previous post, I mentioned that my str archer uses significantly more MP pots than HP pots. If I don't fight any giants, I actually use around ten to fifteen HP pots per every two hundred MP pots. This means I don't really need all the HP that I have when dealing with PvE (And I'm only talking about PvE at this moment), and packing more of a punch would certainly make the game more fun.

MegaMan wrote:

A crit on a antidevil/strong/beserker by a str/bower would be extremely damaging to this build.

Again, this is an appeal to luck. Your statement could be reversed, by saying "Not acheiving a crit on antidevil/strong/berserker would be extremely damaging to a str archer"

MegaMan wrote:

a 80% magical balance doesn't mean nukes will do shit damage on you. Sure, the damage from them will be lowered slightly, but the threat remains.

If you wear garments, and then say your balances are at 8x%, therefore I am invincible to nukers, you will be toast to any str build. Unless you can kill them in the time they kill you (which is maybe 3 hits, 2 if it's a crit, or have uber gear(which, by-the-way is something we should NOT be relying on)) then you are toast. Simple.

I don't think anyone is saying that an eighty+ percent magic balance will make nukes negligible (even nukers get killed by nukers, right?), but to say that it will only lower them slightly is an understatement. Any build with an eighty percent magic balance, regardless of the weapon, will fare better against a nuke compared to a str build of the same level in the same gear as far as the raw damage received goes. This raises another question: does the increase in magic defense compensate for the lack of HP?

Again, I agree that people should not be relying on gear.

MegaMan wrote:

No matter what build you are doing, you will at some time in your sro career get into 1v1 fights. Jobbing solo, caping, whatever. I never implied that str bowers were good in 1v1, they are good support until someone from the crowd decides to take after you. Then what do you do?

You crit, or rather try to. If you don't crit on one of your hardcore shots, You will most likely die. Even for str-bowers, because of the shitty defence of bow. Thats why people go pure-str, for the backup HP and crits.

Relying on a crit to kill is relying on LUCK and nothing more. You are also forgetting that the 69:70 archer will do higher damage on non-crit shots. And it's not like the 69:70 archer's crit will be completely gimped. There was some theoretical math earlier in this thread that indicated that the crit wouldn't be that far behind that of a str archer's.

At the moment, I'm waiting for senapanaga (or anyone else who is using this build) to determine if the extra damage makes up for the lack of HP and lowered crit.

Realistically speaking, if you're in a mass entanglement and someone from the crowd decides to target you, you probably won't react quickly enough to do anything about it anyway. I see this happen to all builds - if someone starts hitting you while you are busy hitting someone else, you become very prone to dying.

It was a valiant effort, MegaMan, but I get nothing from your post that makes the the str archer any better or worse than the hybrid build proposed in this guide.

I think the fundamental question that needs to be answered in terms of PvP is whether or not this build has what it needs to compensate for the lost HP. Some people say yes, some people say no, but no one can answer why.

Megaman · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 468 **Location:**

Eukanuba wrote:

MegaMan wrote:

You can't base the good/bad interpretations of an experimental build by:

-It's balances with full STR and INT on its gear

Agreed. In fact, I posted earlier in this thread that any real test of power must be done armed and equipped with NPC gear only

I completely agree.

MegaMan wrote:

-The rate it uses pots (nukers save hp pots better than this build if they can 1hit+shout, which is what they should be training on)
-Mentioning how easy it is to kill 2x/3x mobs in pve

Those are valid statements.

Your counterargument about nukers only address their HP pot consumption. HP and MP pots are equally priced and have infinite availability, assuming you can afford them. Pot economy is a valid concern in terms of gold and saving inventory space, especially if you have to carry arrows.

I agree, but that is one of the things you address later on in your planning stage, meaning it doesn't take priority over more important points, such as damage, tankability, etc...

Some people just want to kill mobs, so let them have at it. In a previous post, I mentioned that my str archer uses significantly more MP pots than HP pots. If I don't fight any giants, I actually use around ten to fifteen HP pots per every two hundred MP pots. This means I don't really need all the HP that I have when dealing with PvE (And I'm only talking about PvE at this moment), and packing more of a punch would certainly make the game more fun.

Most pure builds are like this, they either take a ton of one or a ton of the other

MegaMan wrote:

A crit on a antidevil/strong/beserker by a str/bower would be extremely damaging to this build.

Again, this is an appeal to luck. Your statement could be reversed, by saying "Not acheiving a crit on antidevil/strong/berserker would be extremely damaging to a str archer"

Alchemy is also based on luck, and reversed: What if you can't get 80% balances from alchemy? Because thats what everyone seems to take for granted. They should be basing the build off 70% or 69% balances.

MegaMan wrote:

a 80% magical balance doesn't mean nukes will do shit damage on you. Sure, the damage from them will be lowered slightly, but the threat remains.

If you wear garments, and then say your balances are at 8x%, therefore I am invincible to nukers, you will be toast to any str build. Unless you can kill them in the time they kill you (which is maybe 3 hits, 2 if it's a crit, or have uber gear(which, by-the-way is something we should NOT be relying on)) then you are toast. Simple.

I don't think anyone is saying that an eighty+ percent magic balance will make nukes negligible (even nukers get killed by nukers, right?), but to say that it will only lower them slightly is an understatement. Any build with an eighty percent magic balance, regardless of the weapon, will fare better against a nuke compared to a str build of the same level in the same gear as far as the raw damage received goes. This raises another question: does the increase in magic defense compensate for the lack of HP?

I agree, but again, thats assuming we have an 80% mag. balance from alchemy, and a 70% mag balance wouldn't fare too well, but it would help to a degree

Again, I agree that people should not be relying on gear.

MegaMan wrote:

No matter what build you are doing, you will at some time in your sro career get into 1v1 fights. Jobbing solo, caping, whatever. I never implied that str bowers were good in 1v1, they are good support until someone from the crowd decides to take after you. Then what do you do?

You crit, or rather try to. If you don't crit on one of your hardcore shots, You will most likely die. Even for str-bowers, because of the shitty defence of bow. Thats why people go pure-str, for the backup HP and crits.

Relying on a crit to kill is relying on LUCK and nothing more. You are also forgetting that the 69:70 archer will do higher damage on non-crit shots. And it's not like the 69:70 archer's crit will be completely gimped. There was some theoretical math earlier in this thread that indicated that the crit wouldn't be that far behind that of a str archer's.

I think that (without gear, a fair test) a 70% or 69% physical balance (whichever one you decide to make 70%) has a greatly reduced critting power, at least 25% of a pure str. Even with gears, the 106-8% physical balance outweighs the 8x% balance.

Remember, anti-devil has a crit 30 increase on its last book (which I'm assuming means 30% chance increased to crit, but I'm not sure) which makes more common critting a reality. Although it is still based on pure luck, the chance of critting is enhanced by this. Another viable point is that crits on powerfuls shot -when they happen- are very deadly.

At the moment, I'm waiting for senapanaga (or anyone else who is using this build) to determine if the extra damage makes up for the lack of HP and lowered crit.

Realistically speaking, if you're in a mass entanglement and someone from the crowd decides to target you, you probably won't react quickly enough to do anything about it anyway. I see this happen to all builds - if someone starts hitting you while you are busy hitting someone else, you become very prone to dying.

It was a valiant effort, MegaMan, but I get nothing from your post that makes the the str archer any better or worse than the hybrid build proposed in this guide.

I think the fundamental question that needs to be answered in terms of PvP is whether or not this build has what it needs to compensate for the lost HP. Some people say yes, some people say no, but no one can answer why.

Another valid point is:

Taking for granted you will get 8x/8x balances, what happens when your pure build opponent does the same? then they will have 10x phys for str, and 10x mag and 6x phys for int builds.

Eukanuba wrote:

I don't think anyone is saying that an eighty+ percent magic balance will make nukes negligible

senapanaga wrote:

an amazing MAG BALANCE that nukers would suk at killing it.

Although, I agree you have valid statements supporting the build.

IguanaRampage · **Joined:** Jul 2006 **Posts:** 2483 **Location:** Changing

if this build were in armor, nukers might 1 or 2-hit it

If its in garms, nukers will have to KD and Stab or Stun to kill it

If its in protector, use a mix!
Do you guys really think you will be undefeatable when you fight a nuker with >110% mag balance (someone who's done just as much or more alchemy than you!) just because you have some int and wear garms?

Because then we sword nukers in garms are nuker immune! Muahaha!

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

IguanaRampage wrote:

if this build were in armor, nukers might 1 or 2-hit it

If its in garms, nukers will have to KD and Stab or Stun to kill it

If its in protector, use a mix!
Do you guys really think you will be undefeatable when you fight a nuker with >110% mag balance (someone who's done just as much or more alchemy than you!) just because you have some int and wear garms?

Because then we sword nukers in garms are nuker immune! Muahaha!

I agree somewhat.

This is what I tested with a pure int spear nuke against other builds. All were wearing protector with all npc gear.

Against a pure str glaive, 2-4 nukes killed one.
Against a pure st blade, the results varied. Blocking played a part in this. The results are far to varied to post them.
Against a pure int spear, sometimes it only took 1 nuke, other times 1 or 2 more.
Against a pure int sword, the results varied because of blocking.
I didn't bother to test against hybrids since their balances vary.

The point of this was to try and comprehend how a 70:70 build could possibly stay alive long enough when a pure str with all the hp dies in 3 or 4 nukes and a pure int with the high int balance giving it better magical defense dies in 1-2 nukes.

Attack rating was another reason why the results varied. The pure int spear nuked the pure str glaive for 60-80% of its hp. The pure int spear nuked other pure int spears for either all to 85% of its hp. For a 70:70 archer, I wouldn't doubt that one would die in 1 or 2 nukes. Simply because they lack the hp to tank and their raw damage isn't as fast and powerful as a pure int spear. A critical could increase your chances of winning but I don't think thats the reason you went 70:70.

Of course, for testing purposes, all opponents remained stationary, so player skill, stun, etc. was not factored in.

Using a pure int spear was just a variable since its the quickest way to determine the survivability of a build since it provides the most damage in the shortest amount of time. You could do this with other builds also. The number of hits it takes to kill another build would vary but the main point would be that how could a 70:70 bow do any better than a pure str bow? A pure int spear's survivability depends on how fast it can give out damage. Pure str bladers depend on kd, castle shield, the extra def and blocking from a shield. Pure str glaivers depend on their hp buff, bloody fan storm, stun, and knockback to increase their survivability. Hybrids have a tendency to have a mixture of these to make up for what they sacrificed to become a hybrid. Pure str bowers depend on their 18.0m attack range, an extra 4.4m with that, a 56+ attack rating increase, and a skill that has a 30 point edge above all other skills in critical probablity. Pure str's in general depend on there high hp and pure int's depend on their high damage.

With the last book anti devil bow with a bow of about 7 or 8, you can critical almost every other hit. Maxed anti devil bow is 260~351 (250%) and soul spear 386~497 (175%). This may seem like a big miss match but its not. You critical much more often. The main reason though is your attack rating.

To simplify things, lets say the glaiver and the bower each has a 100% str balance and a 100% mag balance. A level 72 glaive has a phy damage of 658~856 and a mag damage of 983~1248. A level 72 blade has a phy damage of 626~728 and a mag damage of 942~1132. A level 72 bow has a phy damage of 595~778 and a mag damage of 953~1246. Because of attack rating, at one point you could be out damaging a glaiver since they lack the skills that increase attack rating and probably only end of doing minimum out of the possible damage since the best players have alchemy parry on their gear. At another point, you could be hitting as low as a blader if your attack rating isn't high.

The benefits of high attack rating becomes more apparent the higher lvl you are. A random level 90 sword nuker I seen using the same book fire nuke ranged from 8k to 11k. Thats a pretty big difference in damage.

High attack attack rating means your skills do the most damage which is most important for phy skills since I'm pretty sure you're not going to be fighting with nukes. A critical with an high attack rating means double the damage of a normal phy attack. A critical in no way benefits a mag attack. Its to the point that if you're not nuking, what is your attack rating being used for? By not being pure str or nearly full str, you are losing 4 benefits of being a bow. Deadly critical power combined with phy attacks that do nearly their max possible damage, 27% less hp than a full str, receive 27% more damage from pure strs, and lower your phy skills attack power by 27% just so you can do 52% more int damage than a pure str and take 52% less int damage than a pure str but die as fast a pure int spear? You do realized that pure ints always overkill their target anyway right?

Full str bow may not be the best possible bow build but its certainly better than a 70:70 bow. I would have to say pure str bow is the best bow build at the moment. I believe the best bow build lies between 90% and 96% str balance. It could possibly be that full str bow really is the best bow build.

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:12 pm

lame !
i know that full str bow isnt the best build right now for bow its just a fact believe it or not i dont care either !
i saw Wind pvp'ing against full str glavie and he also won against them withouth sos gears and they got same weapon som +3
i ask other ppl on the server who is the best bow char all told me Wind !
no1 kills ysu and yarkan so often like him and he kill ALL that is the FACT ALL int nukers i dont care what you are going to complain again like bla bla int can 1-2 hit this build the bow will kill the inter befor he can even shot his second nuke (if he dont block) Wind is a powerfull bow player the best one on the server and we dont talk about noobs on some new servers we are talking about the elite of SRO so dont compare the guys on your server with the elite !
str bow is good but not the best you cant make your ..... bow char which only based on the anti devil bow ?
1 skill = a reason for full str ? haha never thats lame !
but ok i wont discuss here anymore its make me tired of reading some discussion about rubbish hybrid build... tzz lame
i did my job here and posted the guide now im done tired of noobs..
i wont give any advices any more maybe i shouldnt tell you the guide + calculation....some ppl still acting like OMG noob bow must be full str ! tzz
nvm good luck all and cya

im done here !
next time help yourself and spend time on some other build than pure... bt u are scared and lazy...so :banghead:

cya keep it real and have fun

NO POST OF MY SIDE ANYMORE

taintofsleep · **Joined:** Nov 2006 **Posts:** 723 **Location:**

tried this build... got owned in pvp anyone close to my level. I only got to level 31 so I guess I can't say anything, but I didn't like the pvp aspects. Oh yeah, I had an SoS +3 bow on almost every level. Err yeah I guess I just would rather have something that excels in pvp and pve. I moved to hybrid spear and I am finding it very nice. I do much better in pvp and pve. I went against a str bower my level and a couple levels higher, and we were about 50:50. I could 2 hit him with my char and if he got a crit he would win usually. Only thing that saved him some extra shots was his hp. Who knows maybe this build is better when it is level 70 or higher I just don't want to have a crappy char until then.

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Jadekiss wrote:

lame !

Thats how you begin your response into defending your build and others that oppose it?

Jadekiss wrote:

i know that full str bow isnt the best build right now for bow its just a fact believe it or not i dont care either !

You posting here proves other wise. You posted this guide because you believed 70:70 was the best build so you must have cared at some point.

Jadekiss wrote:

i saw Wind pvp'ing against full str glavie and he also won against them withouth sos gears and they got same weapon som +3
i ask other ppl on the server who is the best bow char all told me Wind !
no1 kills ysu and yarkan so often like him and he kill ALL that is the FACT ALL int nukers i dont care what you are going to complain again like bla bla int can 1-2 hit this build the bow will kill the inter befor he can even shot his second nuke (if he dont block) Wind is a powerfull bow player the best one on the server and we dont talk about noobs on some new servers we are talking about the elite of SRO so dont compare the guys on your server with the elite !

You must already know that one person does not determine the credibility of a build. You're calling everyone else "noobs" just because they aren't as good and have the same gear as this Wind person? You really are showing your true colors. It seems that you are nothing more but just a big fan of Wind. I'm 60% sure that you created this topic so that everyone could realize how great Wind is and everyone make a build just like him. You've barely experienced the build you claim to be the best(only lvl 24) and I'm pretty sure you haven't experienced much of a pure st bow either.

Jadekiss wrote:

str bow is good but not the best you cant make your ..... bow char which only based on the anti devil bow
1 skill = a reason for full str ? haha never thats lame !

If you read everything I posted above and throughout this thread then you would already know that I stated many more key points than what you have stated in that quote.

Jadekiss wrote:

but ok i wont discuss here anymore its make me tired of reading some discussion about rubbish hybrid build... tzz lame

Obviously you didn't read all that I stated or just didn't comprehend it.

Jadekiss wrote:

i did my job here and posted the guide now im done tired of noobs..

Resulting to insults now? If people are still questioning the credibility of your build then your job is not done. Obviously, you don't have to answer all question but there is much to be said and many key points that are made against it, you completely look over them.

Jadekiss wrote:

i wont give any advices any more maybe i shouldnt tell you the guide + calculation....some ppl still acting like OMG noob bow must be full str ! tzz

No one here from the last couple of pages I believe never said anything like that. Your way of paraphrasing is pretty twisted of what was said. They all seem to provide logical and pretty good reasons in some areas and you did also.

Jadekiss wrote:

next time help yourself and spend time on some other build than pure... bt u are scared and lazy...so :banghead:

I see...

kabu · **Joined:** Jan 2007 **Posts:** 19 **Location:**

Da_Realest wrote:

Jadekiss wrote:

lame !

Thats how you begin your response into defending your build and others that oppose it?

Jadekiss wrote:

i know that full str bow isnt the best build right now for bow its just a fact believe it or not i dont care either !

You posting here proves other wise. You posted this guide because you believed 70:70 was the best build so you must have cared at some point.

Jadekiss wrote:

i saw Wind pvp'ing against full str glavie and he also won against them withouth sos gears and they got same weapon som +3
i ask other ppl on the server who is the best bow char all told me Wind !
no1 kills ysu and yarkan so often like him and he kill ALL that is the FACT ALL int nukers i dont care what you are going to complain again like bla bla int can 1-2 hit this build the bow will kill the inter befor he can even shot his second nuke (if he dont block) Wind is a powerfull bow player the best one on the server and we dont talk about noobs on some new servers we are talking about the elite of SRO so dont compare the guys on your server with the elite !

You must already know that one person does not determine the credibility of a build. You're calling everyone else "noobs" just because they aren't as good and have the same gear as this Wind person? You really are showing your true colors. It seems that you are nothing more but just a big fan of Wind. I'm 60% sure that you created this topic so that everyone could realize how great Wind is and everyone make a build just like him. You've barely experienced the build you claim to be the best(only lvl 24) and I'm pretty sure you haven't experienced much of a pure st bow either.

Jadekiss wrote:

str bow is good but not the best you cant make your ..... bow char which only based on the anti devil bow
1 skill = a reason for full str ? haha never thats lame !

If you read everything I posted above and throughout this thread then you would already know that I stated many more key points than what you have stated in that quote.

Jadekiss wrote:

but ok i wont discuss here anymore its make me tired of reading some discussion about rubbish hybrid build... tzz lame

Obviously you didn't read all that I stated or just didn't comprehend it.

Jadekiss wrote:

i did my job here and posted the guide now im done tired of noobs..

Resulting to insults now? If people are still questioning the credibility of your build then your job is not done. Obviously, you don't have to answer all question but there is much to be said and many key points that are made against it, you completely look over them.

Jadekiss wrote:

i wont give any advices any more maybe i shouldnt tell you the guide + calculation....some ppl still acting like OMG noob bow must be full str ! tzz

No one here from the last couple of pages I believe never said anything like that. Your way of paraphrasing is pretty twisted of what was said. They all seem to provide logical and pretty good reasons in some areas and you did also.

Jadekiss wrote:

next time help yourself and spend time on some other build than pure... bt u are scared and lazy...so :banghead:

I see...

I think This Build Is Awesome in Pve MAn I Own Everything i Attack Even those damm white spiders lol and like i said for a build to shine in pvp u need money and Sp is this wrong thinking realest are im i going about this rite.i Use Bow and Spear And the Damage Are Awesome i Like this build cant wait to PVP And See what Happens. Oh Yea And High Attack rating is Soo Fcking Important For this Build thats What i Feel i have 64% on my spear and 79% on bow.

Eukanuba · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 171

Da_Realest wrote:

This is what I tested with a pure int spear nuke against other builds. All were wearing protector with all npc gear.

Against a pure str glaive, 2-4 nukes killed one.
Against a pure st blade, the results varied. Blocking played a part in this. The results are far to varied to post them.
Against a pure int spear, sometimes it only took 1 nuke, other times 1 or 2 more.
Against a pure int sword, the results varied because of blocking.
I didn't bother to test against hybrids since their balances vary.

Wow, very thorough. I am indeed impressed. However, if you feel inclined to repeat your experiment, it'd be helpful to the greater cause if you could include information such as damage taken, magic defense of the target, HP of the target, and magic attack of the caster. This would allow us to get some idea of where a shield bearing character stands, and later use a little elementary math to factor in blocking.

Da_Realist wrote:

The point of this was to try and comprehend how a 70:70 build could possibly stay alive long enough when a pure str with all the hp dies in 3 or 4 nukes and a pure int with the high int balance giving it better magical defense dies in 1-2 nukes.

Definitely valid concerns. The results of your experiment show that the raw HP gained from str stats is worth more than raw magic defense from int points. This may be an oversimplification of the math that would go into it, but at this point we can conclude that a hybrid, any hybrid, would theoretically survive longer than an int build, but short than a str build.

On a tangent, it would seem that this also debunks the "Pure str already have good phys defense from stats" belief that runs rampant. I guess the only real way to test this would be through very expensive alchemy to give an int character more HP without raising the str stats. Even then, I'm not certain alchemy can give enough HP to test this to a satisfactory degree.

Da_Realist wrote:

Attack rating was another reason why the results varied. The pure int spear nuked the pure str glaive for 60-80% of its hp. The pure int spear nuked other pure int spears for either all to 85% of its hp. For a 70:70 archer, I wouldn't doubt that one would die in 1 or 2 nukes. Simply because they lack the hp to tank and their raw damage isn't as fast and powerful as a pure int spear. A critical could increase your chances of winning but I don't think thats the reason you went 70:70.

So the mag defense really did have a significant effect on the raw damage taken? You also mention that the nuke did 60-80% of a full str glaive's HP, yet earlier had mentioned it took 2-4 nukes to kill. Even at the lowest spectrum, 60% + 60% = dead. This makes me suspect that the characters had auto pot on. If you are going to repeat the experiment, it would be helpful to see the results of autopot on and off.

Da_Realist wrote:

Of course, for testing purposes, all opponents remained stationary, so player skill, stun, etc. was not factored in.

No problem there. Laboratory conditions, right? Take it one step at a time.

Da_Realist wrote:

Using a pure int spear was just a variable since its the quickest way to determine the survivability of a build since it provides the most damage in the shortest amount of time. You could do this with other builds also. The number of hits it takes to kill another build would vary but the main point would be that how could a 70:70 bow do any better than a pure str bow? A pure int spear's survivability depends on how fast it can give out damage. Pure str bladers depend on kd, castle shield, the extra def and blocking from a shield. Pure str glaivers depend on their hp buff, bloody fan storm, stun, and knockback to increase their survivability. Hybrids have a tendency to have a mixture of these to make up for what they sacrificed to become a hybrid. Pure str bowers depend on their 18.0m attack range, an extra 4.4m with that, a 56+ attack rating increase, and a skill that has a 30 point edge above all other skills in critical probablity. Pure str's in general depend on there high hp and pure int's depend on their high damage.

I think you answered your own question there. While the str archer relies on crit to kill and high HP to survive, the hybrid counts on higher damage to kill, with the hope that it has done enough damage to survive any connecting blows.

Da_Realist wrote:

With the last book anti devil bow with a bow of about 7 or 8, you can critical almost every other hit. Maxed anti devil bow is 260~351 (250%) and soul spear 386~497 (175%). This may seem like a big miss match but its not. You critical much more often. The main reason though is your attack rating.

I'll say it again, depending on crits is depending on luck. Even if you increase your crit ratio, you're still counting on luck. A quick experiment I conducted showed that weapon skills did, in fact, increase the damage of imbues. This was done with a low level character, however, and the increase in the imbue's power was not proportional to the phy damage increase. I'd do it again to get the exact ratio, but I have my back against the wall with a huge paper to write for a class. Give me some time and I'll get around to it.

Da_Realist wrote:

To simplify things, lets say the glaiver and the bower each has a 100% str balance and a 100% mag balance. A level 72 glaive has a phy damage of 658~856 and a mag damage of 983~1248. A level 72 blade has a phy damage of 626~728 and a mag damage of 942~1132. A level 72 bow has a phy damage of 595~778 and a mag damage of 953~1246. Because of attack rating, at one point you could be out damaging a glaiver since they lack the skills that increase attack rating and probably only end of doing minimum out of the possible damage since the best players have alchemy parry on their gear. At another point, you could be hitting as low as a blader if your attack rating isn't high.

Attack rating is important. I don't think anyone denies that. But considering that the bow has the lowest possible physical damage of the three weapons cited (595 compared to the glaive's 658 and the blade's 626), I would say that the archer needs his attack rating buff just to stay competitive.

Da_Realist wrote:

High attack attack rating means your skills do the most damage which is most important for phy skills since I'm pretty sure you're not going to be fighting with nukes. A critical with an high attack rating means double the damage of a normal phy attack. A critical in no way benefits a mag attack. Its to the point that if you're not nuking, what is your attack rating being used for? By not being pure str or nearly full str, you are losing 4 benefits of being a bow. Deadly critical power combined with phy attacks that do nearly their max possible damage, 27% less hp than a full str, receive 27% more damage from pure strs, and lower your phy skills attack power by 27% just so you can do 52% more int damage than a pure str and take 52% less int damage than a pure str but die as fast a pure int spear? You do realized that pure ints always overkill their target anyway right?

The disadvantages you stated are good things to consider, but we have yet to see if the increased damage compensates for them. Besides, even though the physical portion of the 69:70 archer's crit will lose power, the extra damage from the int side might compensate. Saying that giving up 27% of your physical power for a 52% increase in int power is not a bad idea in itself when you realize that all weapons have a significantly higher mag attack than phy attack.

Da_Realist wrote:

Full str bow may not be the best possible bow build but its certainly better than a 70:70 bow. I would have to say pure str bow is the best bow build at the moment. I believe the best bow build lies between 90% and 96% str balance. It could possibly be that full str bow really is the best bow build.

I play a str archer character. If you tell me that the full str archers are the best possible archers, then you might as well say that archers are a lost cause. If there is to be any redemption for the archer class, then it must come as a result of JoyMax changing the system like they did for the heuksal and bicheon trees (what's the deal with that?), or it must be found in some form of hybrid.

I will say that in this post, you've made the best case so far against the 69:70 build.

In addition, Jadekiss....please don't go there. If you're not willing to address questions about your build, you never should have proclaimed it to be the BEST BOW BUILD.

Da_Realest · **Joined:** Apr 2006 **Posts:** 2435 **Location:**

Eukanuba wrote:

Wow, very thorough. I am indeed impressed. However, if you feel inclined to repeat your experiment, it'd be helpful to the greater cause if you could include information such as damage taken, magic defense of the target, HP of the target, and magic attack of the caster. This would allow us to get some idea of where a shield bearing character stands, and later use a little elementary math to factor in blocking.

I thought about including those statistics but based on the way the topic creator responds to the opposition I felt that including would be unnecessary.

Eukanuba wrote:

Definitely valid concerns. The results of your experiment show that the raw HP gained from str stats is worth more than raw magic defense from int points. This may be an oversimplification of the math that would go into it, but at this point we can conclude that a hybrid, any hybrid, would theoretically survive longer than an int build, but short than a str build.

On a tangent, it would seem that this also debunks the "Pure str already have good phys defense from stats" belief that runs rampant. I guess the only real way to test this would be through very expensive alchemy to give an int character more HP without raising the str stats. Even then, I'm not certain alchemy can give enough HP to test this to a satisfactory degree.

I agree.

Eukanuba wrote:

So the mag defense really did have a significant effect on the raw damage taken? You also mention that the nuke did 60-80% of a full str glaive's HP, yet earlier had mentioned it took 2-4 nukes to kill. Even at the lowest spectrum, 60% + 60% = dead. This makes me suspect that the characters had auto pot on. If you are going to repeat the experiment, it would be helpful to see the results of autopot on and off.

All subjects had autopot set to 85%. Each character was killed 3 times although I believe I should have tested a few more times in order to portray the damage %'s as accurately as possible.

I failed to mention that damage figures of 60%-80% came from the first book fire nuke. The first book light nuke damage ranged behaved much more wildly. Damage ranged from 50%-84%.

Pots works much faster than one would believe. I don't cleary remember the numbers from the above procedures so I will use my experience with my lvl 59 pure str blader as an example. My lvl 59 pure str blader has a little more than 9k hp. A fully farmed level 63 nuker first nuke hits at an average of about 6k. The next nuke hits for about 6k also. Adding the damage, I should be dead but pots heal much faster. Maybe I'll take the time one day to calculate the rate of time at which you can pot and the speed at which a nuke is progressing towards you.

Eukanuba wrote:

I'll say it again, depending on crits is depending on luck. Even if you increase your crit ratio, you're still counting on luck. A quick experiment I conducted showed that weapon skills did, in fact, increase the damage of imbues. This was done with a low level character, however, and the increase in the imbue's power was not proportional to the phy damage increase. I'd do it again to get the exact ratio, but I have my back against the wall with a huge paper to write for a class. Give me some time and I'll get around to it.

I'm pretty sure that you realize that other builds rely on luck much more than pure str archers. Kd, stun, blocking, etc. Maybe I'll elaborate more tomorrow.

Eukanuba wrote:

Attack rating is important. I don't think anyone denies that. But considering that the bow has the lowest possible physical damage of the three weapons cited (595 compared to the glaive's 658 and the blade's 626), I would say that the archer needs his attack rating buff just to stay competitive.

Yes, but the same could also be said about Bicheon with the shield passive and glaive with the hp passive.

Eukanuba wrote:

The disadvantages you stated are good things to consider, but we have yet to see if the increased damage compensates for them. Besides, even though the physical portion of the 69:70 archer's crit will lose power, the extra damage from the int side might compensate. Saying that giving up 27% of your physical power for a 52% increase in int power is not a bad idea in itself when you realize that all weapons have a significantly higher mag attack than phy attack.

I agree. I'm waiting for Jadekiss to prove such a thing and many of his followers since one person does not define the success of a build.

Eukanuba wrote:

I play a str archer character. If you tell me that the full str archers are the best possible archers, then you might as well say that archers are a lost cause. If there is to be any redemption for the archer class, then it must come as a result of JoyMax changing the system like they did for the heuksal and bicheon trees (what's the deal with that?), or it must be found in some form of hybrid.

I'm pretty sure Joymax is aware of the current situation with archer builds. Hopefully they are working on something. I think the current updates to certain bicheon and heuskal skills hurt the pacheon builds much more than they are benefiting the bicheon and heuskal builds.

IguanaRampage · **Joined:** Jul 2006 **Posts:** 2483 **Location:** Changing

ok the int hybrid bow (70:70) will do more damage, (unless we are talking about crit 16 bows or something obscene and unrealistic

), however it lacks hp so don't argue that "it does more damage". Of course it does. I think we should all agree that it does, but the pure has hp. I will venture so far as to say that heuskal and bicheon masteries are slightly more suited for str hybrids. This is an int hybrid, and my opinion is that with these balances I would choose a spear, as many did in GnG.

@Jadekiss everyone knows archers pwn uniques

They are the most unfair unique-killers on the planet with their long range. I don't doubt that a hybrid bow in garms would do well against the shaman giants while doing a good hit-and-run on yarkan. If he has awesome equips, he probably has no trouble in taking those uniques down.

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:05 am

@Da_Realest... im not trying to insult someone here ! i just defend myself ...why ? because i spend a lot of time on archer build nearly 2 years then i found a way to make a good archer better than full str... so then suddenly some ppl came into this forum blaming me with some statement like pure str are the best....why is pure str the best build huh ? because of the higher HP ? nah you cant based your char on high hp to survive as a archer....because you arent a tanker !
archer havent a shield bonus either a high phy damage like glavies but they have a skill which have a high crit ratio BUT you cant also just build your char based ON 1 points the crit.... i hope you agree with me that silkraod doesnt based only on pure chars ...THAT cant be !
but how many ppl tried something new huh ? almost the majority just read in forum and ask for a good build... and what are the answers ? right go full str or full int... so only a few ppl tried a new build = hybrids
some ppl failed and some ppl have succes (i dont say that i have succes but i like this build pretty much better than all my other bow builds in the last 2 years)

so i have a lot of ppl now who trys this build and i think they will post there results here ! or either in other forums ... so i think i will tell you about what they post.... but fact is this build rocks in pve...i hope you agree
but pvp ? we will see but stop discussing about full str and their high hp and crit shit
so many ppl post almost the same now its hust repeating !
ok i will go on but right now im only lvl 24 9gap sp farming (doing a great job)
but some other ppl are almost lvl 42+ already

Megaman · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 468 **Location:**

Jadekiss wrote:

@Da_Realest... im not trying to insult someone here ! i just defend myself ...why ? because i spend a lot of time on archer build nearly 2 years then i found a way to make a good archer better than full str... so then suddenly some ppl came into this forum blaming me with some statement like pure str are the best....why is pure str the best build huh ? because of the higher HP ? nah you cant based your char on high hp to survive as a archer....because you arent a tanker !

In all fairness.. You also can't base your build on MAXED int+str from gears..

archer havent a shield bonus either a high phy damage like glavies but they have a skill which have a high crit ratio BUT you cant also just build your char based ON 1 points the crit.... i hope you agree with me that silkraod doesnt based only on pure chars ...THAT cant be !

no, but bows, because of the crit frequency increase, high physical damage for some skills and powerful ones, a crit would do insane damage. Bow's damage without crits is like a str blader fighting without blocks: the build loses it bonus, and most damaging form of attack

but how many ppl tried something new huh ? almost the majority just read in forum and ask for a good build... and what are the answers ? right go full str or full int... so only a few ppl tried a new build = hybrids
some ppl failed and some ppl have succes (i dont say that i have succes but i like this build pretty much better than all my other bow builds in the last 2 years)

2 years?

so i have a lot of ppl now who trys this build and i think they will post there results here ! or either in other forums ... so i think i will tell you about what they post.... but fact is this build rocks in pve...i hope you agree

Every build can 'rock' in pve. Any build can get to 80, any build. pve: disregard. The only bonus would be fast levelling speed, but in the end, every single build (even the most gimped ones) will get to 80.

but pvp ? we will see but stop discussing about full str and their high hp and crit shit
so many ppl post almost the same now its hust repeating !

Thats because it is commonly known and used, I don;t think anyone would trade in immense crit damage for slightly increased damage in each shot

ok i will go on but right now im only lvl 24 9gap sp farming (doing a great job)
but some other ppl are almost lvl 42+ already

anime891 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:31 am

Too many people predicting this build. You guys have never tried it yet. As you can see this build is no ordinary 2:1 hybrid (I've tested 2:1 and damn it sucks) it's a 70:70 and later on a 80:80 build. As of right now this build is stronger than a full str archer in PVM ranging from 120-250 dmg higher on mobs. The crit compared to a full str is a lot stronger too. about 300-400 dmg stronger. I've tested both buids with the same weapons. 100% guaranteed if you guys decide to compare them yourself. Everyone wonders why archers suck so much? Well they don't and the reason is why archers don't do as well as glavies and bladers is becuase everyone goes for full str thinking that THAT is the full potential of the bow. Well it's not. SRO would be so boring just going pure all the time. You want to experiment with different kinds of builds for each weapon.

Megaman · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 468 **Location:**

anime891 wrote:

Too many people predicting this build. You guys have never tried it yet. As you can see this build is no ordinary 2:1 hybrid (I've tested 2:1 and damn it sucks) it's a 70:70 and later on a 80:80 build. As of right now this build is stronger than a full str archer in PVM ranging from 120-250 dmg higher on mobs. The crit compared to a full str is a lot stronger too. about 300-400 dmg stronger. I've tested both buids with the same weapons. 100% guaranteed if you guys decide to compare them yourself. Everyone wonders why archers suck so much? Well they don't and the reason is why archers don't do as well as glavies and bladers is becuase everyone goes for full str thinking that THAT is the full potential of the bow. Well it's not. SRO would be so boring just going pure all the time. You want to experiment with different kinds of builds for each weapon.

firstly: 2:1 int builds are VERY capable builds, conversely, 2:1 str builds are the suck.
secondly: If you are implying that this build crits higher than a str build equal of its level, you are LYING. It is mechanically impossible for a 70:69 hybrid to crit higher than a full strength, on ANYTHING.
thirdly: If jadekiss first said 'this is a fun bow build' and not 'this is the BEST BOW BUILD' then the last bolded statement would be feasible.

uniqueness =/= superiority

Dempster · **Joined:** Nov 2006 **Posts:** 378

jadekiss should probably spend more time playing sro rather than dictate which build is what in here... :roll:

curious, do you think your "best bow build" will ever be able to tank yarkan?

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 pm

@Dempster...go on aege and wait till yarkan spawn... then tell me who killed him !
let me guess Wind ? right.... so i answered your question =)
im not a fan of Wind but i respect him he is the only one i know right now who has a high lvl archer with a balance of 81:80 and he plays in the super liga not low lvl !

@MegaMan yeah nearly 2 years ! im one of the first beta tester of this game and its kinda 2 years right now or even more im not sure

but ok we will see if this is the best bow build or not if i have right ( i will) you can say sry and you will see that you are WRONG but if im wrong i will say ok im sry im a dumb noob ok ?
so happy grinding....

NuclearSilo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:57 pm

IguanaRampage wrote:

@Jadekiss everyone knows archers pwn uniques

They are the most unfair unique-killers on the planet with their long range. I don't doubt that a hybrid bow in garms would do well against the shaman giants while doing a good hit-and-run on yarkan. If he has awesome equips, he probably has no trouble in taking those uniques down.

Ok, i dont think i need to read all the discussions and craps out there.
First of all, what i want to say is bower is never good 1vs1 against other build. If u want to compare plz compare bow vs bow. Why? Because bow is a support build; bow is a killer, yet is not a tanker. So what u need is a strategy, like run & hit & fire/ice wall....but noobs out there will call u noob either.
Archers pwn uniques because they have full time to deal damage, unlike tankers are knocked down, knocked back, stunned by yarkan, nukers with short range have to run eventually.
I dont want to say pure str is the best, and neither 70:70, but i would say the best is hybrid with a ?? balance that we didnt find yet. Why? Let's say pure str at lvl 70 has 11k HP, i will choose a random hybrid with 10k HP. So i sacrificed 1k HP for a small damage, maybe it's only 200 damages. But in 5 shots i gain like 1k damages, so it will compensate my initial lost HP. The longer the fight is, the more hybrid has higher advantage. So definitly the best is not pure str.
U cant neither compare build with npc gear. Because new alchemy system reversed the world. At lvl 90, nukers can tank like a str, because the damage str on int is like the same at lvl 70, but int will have more HP = 11k HP while damage of glaiver is 3k....
Blader/swordman has 200phy def higher, 300 mag def higher because of their shield + their skill add def & block, with critical parry => 60-100% critical reduce. So dont rely much on your lucky critical.
Bow str at lvl 90 has 24k HP, but i'd rather choose a bow which has 20k HP with 500 damage bonus that i can compensate my lost HP in 8 shots.
The problem remain is still time = survability vs damage.

I currently have a sword char with only 5k HP, but other build hardly kill me with their weapon + 3

(in condition they dont have good gear add str and int)

umerasmez · **Joined:** Jan 2007 **Posts:** 21

NuclearSilo wrote:

At lvl 90, nukers can tank like a str, because the damage str on int is like the same at lvl 70, but int will have more HP = 11k HP while damage of glaiver is 3k....

I don't think at 90 the dmg of a glavie on a nuker will be 3k. At 90 the dmg you will make on another lvl 90 char will be the same as 70 vs 70 ?? I don't think so..

@Jadekiss ofcourse Wind will kill yarkan, his range says all. Even a lvl 80 full str glavie/blader will have problems staying alive near yarkan due to lag. If u have lag 2 secs and you don' pot ? In the mean time Wind is 22+meters away doing damage. The same thing is happening on xian too, an archer pwns yarkan.

Da_Realest allready said that joymax has to improve archer skills, the distance bonus is not enough

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:44 pm

@umerasmez yea sure but compare this a full str against a 80.80 bow on unique..who will get the kill ?
the 80:80 for sure because of the higher avarage dmg
but i just wonder how Wind can kill a full str gavie ?
i ask a lot of ppl on aege also his union members and they said to me :yea he can own full str glaviers and yarkan for sure
but i just wonder... how ?
because you guys posting here crit crit crit and hp hp hp
but how can a 80:80 kill full str glavier while a full str bow sux ? (not in every pvp i dont want to blame full str bow)

senapanaga · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 1577 **Location:**

BTW i was planning all along to have slightly skewed balances.

More Str definitely.

maybe 90% phy balance and 70% mag balance.

=\

Jadekiss · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:53 pm

@sena =) do whatever you want its your char

if you are happy with your char keep on it

senapanaga · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 1577 **Location:**

yea thats what i say.

HertogJan · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 1063 **Location:**

dayum all these long posts..

I can say I do rely on my gear. Simply to the fact I want a high crit on my bow, dont really care about my other things until I get into lvl 64+

It's not really a question IF i am gonna crit in pvp. It's more the question WHEN. cause I will crit in every fight that will take more then 2 arrows, sounds stupid but its the case ^^

taintofsleep · **Joined:** Nov 2006 **Posts:** 723 **Location:**

by the way, the only reason I changed my char was because I was sick and tired of seeing other builds do better than me. :cry:

if anyone cares.(other than archer builds)

Dempster · **Joined:** Nov 2006 **Posts:** 378

Jadekiss wrote:

@Dempster...go on aege and wait till yarkan spawn... then tell me who killed him !
let me guess Wind ? right.... so i answered your question =)
im not a fan of Wind but i respect him he is the only one i know right now who has a high lvl archer with a balance of 81:80 and he plays in the super liga not low lvl !

@MegaMan yeah nearly 2 years ! im one of the first beta tester of this game and its kinda 2 years right now or even more im not sure

but ok we will see if this is the best bow build or not if i have right ( i will) you can say sry and you will see that you are WRONG but if im wrong i will say ok im sry im a dumb noob ok ?
so happy grinding....

... no one here cares about this wind character, as far as im concerned he's a pure str bow who has lead you to believe hybrid bows are godlike so you would f up your character

(hybrid bows really are the weakest build you can possibly make, thats the sad truth)

HertogJan · **Joined:** Aug 2006 **Posts:** 1063 **Location:**

jada, stupid ignorant question mebbe.

If you are playing this game for 2 years, why the fook dont you have a high lvled hybrid bow?

Eukanuba · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 171

Dempster wrote:

(hybrid bows really are the weakest build you can possibly make, thats the sad truth)

full int shieldless blader?

Taintofsleep wrote:

by the way, the only reason I changed my char was because I was sick and tired of seeing other builds do better than me. if anyone cares.(other than archer builds)

(emphasis added)
Does this mean that you believe the hybrid archer outperformed str archers, and that you have lost faith in the entire class?

anime891 wrote:

As of right now this build is stronger than a full str archer in PVM ranging from 120-250 dmg higher on mobs. The crit compared to a full str is a lot stronger too. about 300-400 dmg stronger. I've tested both buids with the same weapons. 100% guaranteed if you guys decide to compare them yourself.

Since you have access to these builds, could you repeat your test and get some screen shots for us? I think that would help the discussion quite a bit.

MegaMan wrote:

If you are implying that this build crits higher than a str build equal of its level, you are LYING. It is mechanically impossible for a 70:69 hybrid to crit higher than a full strength, on ANYTHING.

Impossible for it to crit harder with the physical portion of the attack, yes. I suspect he is making the claim that the increase magic damage will overcompensate for the lost physical power. Again, awaiting confirmation (video would be preferred) on this.

MegaMan wrote:

no, but bows, because of the crit frequency increase, high physical damage for some skills and powerful ones, a crit would do insane damage. Bow's damage without crits is like a str blader fighting without blocks: the build loses it bonus, and most damaging form of attack

Relying on an archer' crit is relying on luck. Luck, luck, luck. Even though a shield's block is based on luck, there are two things that make it superior to an archer's increased crit probability:

-the block function is automatic. It does not have a casting time, and does not have a cool down. An archer will have to wait for anti-devil to load up, hope for a crit, and then wait for the cool down to reuse the skill. As far as I know, a shield will block even if its bearer is frozen, knocked down, or stunned. I shouldn't have to point this out, but an archer cannot fire anti-devil bow in either of those states. The shield has a chance to block no matter what the character is doing, be it running, attacking, or picking his nose. An archer's crit probability only increases when using anti-devil bow.
-the shield's increased defense will always be present. Even without the block, a shield gives a very nice chunk of defensive power.

Furthermore, I don't know of any sword/blade users who plan their entire strategy around blocking that one big incoming attack. To them, the block is just a nice bonus, and the more often it happens, the better. In contrast, I know that I always hope for a crit when I use anti-devil.

Da_Realist wrote:

I thought about including those statistics but based on the way the topic creator responds to the opposition I felt that including would be unnecessary.

Just remember that there are some folks here who are actually interested in exploring both sides of the issue. The more solid information that is available, the better.

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